Electric Service to Metal Building, Grounding, Etc.

   / Electric Service to Metal Building, Grounding, Etc. #21  
Wrong answer

Seems I only find smaller boxes that come in 2 or 6 spaces. One doesn't offer both 120 & 240 options, and the other requires a main breaker thus bringing it right back down to a small box with few opennings.

Seems odd.

A lot of our buildings don't need the 20 or 40 spaces of a big box, but a single 240 outlet, a lighting 120 branch, and a 120 receptical branch. Can't find a box with 4 spaces.

--->Paul
 
   / Electric Service to Metal Building, Grounding, Etc. #22  
   / Electric Service to Metal Building, Grounding, Etc. #23  
electrician2.com Wire Size calculator

Above link is for derating loads carried by conductors. Derate based upon many factors, temperature being a big one, multiple conductors in a conduit and conduit fill percentage i.e. stuffing a conduit 90% full (a no no), is it aluminum (not as good a carrier as copper), insulation type (600V vs 24v), and what surrounds the wire(s), i.e. dirt for direct burial, water, a wood frame structure..

As to the question on building steel. It must be BONDED. If livestock are to be housed that means a equipotential plane with is covered in Art. 547 WHITEDOGONE nailed it,

we often forget on our own projects to pay attention to all details, granted the code changes, but it changes in response to new info and making it safer. I'll bet some folks are familiar with GFCI receptacles, this is a response to water and electric, it became mandated after the fact, let's try to stay ahead of the curve on safety.
 
   / Electric Service to Metal Building, Grounding, Etc. #24  
Seems I only find smaller boxes that come in 2 or 6 spaces. One doesn't offer both 120 & 240 options, and the other requires a main breaker thus bringing it right back down to a small box with few opennings.

Seems odd.

A lot of our buildings don't need the 20 or 40 spaces of a big box, but a single 240 outlet, a lighting 120 branch, and a 120 receptical branch. Can't find a box with 4 spaces.

--->Paul

I think the "wrong answer" response was to a misinterpretation of section 230.71, where you can have up to 6 disconnects, but there are specific reasons for having these disconnects, and it is not referring to the number of breaker spaces in the panel.

The small panels you find at Lowes are not intended as a building service entrance.
 
   / Electric Service to Metal Building, Grounding, Etc. #25  
All the breaker boxes I've bought for barn installation only have a common strip for neutral and ground. Am I missing something here?

Some panels you have to buy the ground bus separately. Some, usually meant for service entrance have a neutral to ground bonding screw. You don't use this screw if the panel is used as a sub panel, the neutral must be isolated in this case.


Can you say more about "derating". I've buried 10/3 w/ground (UF) for a 30 amp circuit and 12/3 with ground for a 20 amp circuit (stupid Lowes was out of 10/3). Am I expecting too much capability?


capacity of the wire decreases as the wire length gets longer, so it depends on the length of the your run. If long enough, your 10/3 might only be good for 20A, not 30A.



While I agree 100%, four times the neutral supplying our farm has broken and was discovered laying in the tree tops. It runs from hilltop to hill top, about 200' above the road. We never noticed it. I was amazed that there was no noticeable effect. Now I tend to watch that line.

Ken


Actually you do want the ground to carry current, but only in a fault condition so the breaker can operate. The case you pointed out, about the utility neutral on the ground and it didn't effect your service, the utility breaker didn't see it That line is connected to ground in their substation. It just saw a load on the line like always, maybe a little higher than normal. Your transformer still derived your neutral point, and your house was not effected.
 
   / Electric Service to Metal Building, Grounding, Etc. #26  
Actually you do want the ground to carry current

Yes and no. You want to get fault current back to the service disconnect location via the equipment grounding conductor....not Ground (earth). Except in a lightining strike, the ground (earth) carrying fault current downstream of that point is not good. There have been whole books wrote on this subject and it is one of the most misunderstood portions of the NEC. In my work it is the most common violation I see (bonding and grounding).
 
   / Electric Service to Metal Building, Grounding, Etc. #27  
REMEMBER....... THE GREEN WIRE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT WIRE YOU'LL INSTALL!!

NEC Article 250.1 helps you overcome a very common problem. Most folks are so overwhelmed by NEC Article 250 that they immediately get lost when confronted with it. However, it's divided into 6 logical groupings of information and NEC Article 250.1 tells you what those are.


NEC Article 250.2 clarifies things by defining "Effective ground-fault current path," Ground fault," and "Ground-fault current path." These definitions, if understood, are not enough for proper application of grounding. You also need to understand the grounding-related definitions in NEC Article 100. Those are bonding (and variations) and grounding (and variations).


NEC Article 250.3. Another source of panic and confusion when dealing with NEC Article 250 is that many other NEC Articles apply. The discussions on this issue during the NEC 2002 revision process was on how to address the concern that the NEC is "too complicated" (as if electricity is simple?) and "all of the related information should be in one place (which would be fine if every application were identical). NEC Table 250.3 handles this issue quite nicely, by providing an substantial cross-reference.


NEC Article 250.4. This details the general requirements for grounding and bonding. It begins by distinguishing between, and giving requirements for, five categories of grounding: Electrical system grounding, Grounding of electrical equipment, Bonding of electrical equipment, Bonding of electrically conductive materials and other equipment, and Effective ground-fault current path. It also identifies and gives requirements for four categories of ungrounded systems. Figure 250.4 is a great visual for seeing which Parts of NEC Article 250 apply to various aspects of grounding.


NEC Article 250.6 addresses another fundamental concept of grounding. That is, the prevention of "objectionable current flow over the grounding conductors or grounding paths."


NEC Article 250.24(A) says, "A premises wiring system supplied by a grounded ac service shall have a grounding electrode conductor connected to the grounded service conductor, at each service?" Electrons are always trying to get back to the source. The rest of NEC Article 250.24 details requirements for doing this for different applications.


NEC Article 250.28. You need a main bonding jumper. "For a grounded system, an unspliced main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect enclosure to the grounded conductor of the system within the enclosure for each service disconnect. There are two exceptions to this, but in no case can you use the earth as your bonding jumper擁ts resistance is simply too many orders of magnitude too high.


NEC Article 250.34 discusses portable and vehicle-mounted generators. A good reference for understanding why these would differ from stationary systems is IEEE-142.


NEC Article 250.52 gives the requirements for grounding electrodes. This is a more complex topic than most people think. IEEE-142 gives a thorough theoretical treatise of it. The NEC just gives the minimal requirements for safety.


NEC Article 250.58 instructs us to use "the same electrode for grounding conductor enclosures and equipment in or on that same building." The concept of "separate ground" is nonsense. Two good sources for more information on this are Soares Book on Grounding and IEEE-142.
 
   / Electric Service to Metal Building, Grounding, Etc. #28  
I do not have a reply but do have a question.
I have a 30 x 30 steel building for storage(tractor and lawn equipment) and want to install a light and one outlet. I have an existing panel with a 20 amp unused circuit breaker about 60 feet from the building. My question is can I run underground 12/3 wiring from the existing breaker to the building? Would I need to install another panel for grounding? Thanks in advance for any help.
 
   / Electric Service to Metal Building, Grounding, Etc. #29  
I do not have a reply but do have a question.
I have a 30 x 30 steel building for storage(tractor and lawn equipment) and want to install a light and one outlet. I have an existing panel with a 20 amp unused circuit breaker about 60 feet from the building. My question is can I run underground 12/3 wiring from the existing breaker to the building? Would I need to install another panel for grounding? Thanks in advance for any help.

Yes you can. You can run a 20 max. multi-wire branch circuit without all the subpanel stuff. No ground rod required. you just need a Disconnect (A switch will do) the kill the circuit where it enters the structure.
 

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