Redneck in training
Elite Member
The train goes up, the train goes down: a simple new way to store energy - Vox Just run into it. It seems to me that it is doable even on small farm size scale.
Energy storage, cheap and low tech.
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CobyRupert
Super Member
Interesting.
Flywheels, filling abandoned mines/caves with compressed air, pumping water into storage pools. It will be interesting to see where the technology goes as the grid gets less stable, and more storage options are needed when wind and solar becomes a bigger contributor.
Where the (far off) future gets really interesting is when we are all on demand metering, consumer electrical energy is sold on a spot market, and everybody has an electric car (i.e. a giant portable "battery") that is not only a consumer of energy from the grid, but you could also be a SUPPLIER to the grid. Where many individual consumers collectively represent a huge energy storage capacity.
So say you can charge at night (or really sunny/windy day) when the market is 10 cents a kw-hr, and maybe sell part of that electricity back to the grid on a high demand day (or cloudy, doldrum day). Everybody becomes an energy trader. Ken Lay, watch out!!
Flywheels, filling abandoned mines/caves with compressed air, pumping water into storage pools. It will be interesting to see where the technology goes as the grid gets less stable, and more storage options are needed when wind and solar becomes a bigger contributor.
Where the (far off) future gets really interesting is when we are all on demand metering, consumer electrical energy is sold on a spot market, and everybody has an electric car (i.e. a giant portable "battery") that is not only a consumer of energy from the grid, but you could also be a SUPPLIER to the grid. Where many individual consumers collectively represent a huge energy storage capacity.
So say you can charge at night (or really sunny/windy day) when the market is 10 cents a kw-hr, and maybe sell part of that electricity back to the grid on a high demand day (or cloudy, doldrum day). Everybody becomes an energy trader. Ken Lay, watch out!!
OP
Redneck in training
Elite Member
While working in Australia I watched a show in TV about smart grid. Guy had large PV array and battery storage installed. The control system was communicating with smart grid server and supplied power to the grid when there was high demand for energy and therefore it was very expensive. His system supplied energy just for few seconds to cover the demand spike but he made several cents. Recalculated to kWh he was selling energy for about 4 AUD/kWh at the moment.
dickfoster
Elite Member
I wonder if he'll ever recover his cost for all that rigamarole. Likely not. Smart? Maybe not so smart after all. Just because you can doesn't mean you should or that it makes any sense or cents.
KennyG
Elite Member
I've seen this before. My biggest question would be on operating and maintenance cost. Rail and rolling stock requires maintenance. The claimed 86% efficiency would require pretty good bearings since the cycle has a two motor/generator to motion conversions. Costs estimates should be pretty reliable though since it's all known technology.
CalG
Super Member
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The local electric company just pumps water up to an elevated (natural) reservoir.
it's been in operation for quite a number of years, before my time anyway. The cost to maintain the "rolling stock" is minimal. ;-)
it's been in operation for quite a number of years, before my time anyway. The cost to maintain the "rolling stock" is minimal. ;-)
brasco426
Gold Member
I was in a house servicing a boiler and noticed the gentleman had a solar system installed. At the end of the service call he was nice enough to show me it. I was quite impressed at the complexity of it and at the point in time on that particular day was making about 3500 watts. So we began talking more and more and although he can sell back to the grid it seemed as though his particular system came with some strings attached. So here's the catch if the power goes out he can't just make and use the power he's creating. I couldn't believe that a system as nice as it was was useless to him if the power went out. At that point I wasn't convinced I would ever have something like that. I'm sure it has its uses and cuts down his dependence on the grid but man if the power is out you are SOL.
dickfoster
Elite Member
They do the same thing out here. There are mountain reservoirs all over the Sierra Nevada for that purpose. Wonder what they'll do when they get all of those so called clean electric cars sucking on the gird when they can't supply enough electricity to power the grid in hot weather now? Declare stay at home and can't drive days? Maybe they'll start opening up the HOV lanes for gas guzzlers only. LOL
OP
Redneck in training
Elite Member
The inverters work in current mode when connected to the grid. In other words they try to push all available energy to the users conected directly to the PV or to the grid. When grid goes down the inverters disconnect in order to prevent back feed to the grid. There are some inverters that can switch to voltage/frequency operation and supply energy as long as the sun is shining. But the power is available only from an outlet on the inverter. So if grid goes down you are not worse off than if you have no PV.
buickanddeere
Super Member
In order to supply electricity for Canada and the US with pumped storage. It would require pumping the contents of all five Great lakes uphill into some reservoir. Where is the reservoir ?
Any body see a challenge in logistics? The amount of solar panels, the size of a dam, how many trains up how many mountains. The efficiency would be about 80-85% pushing the train uphill and approx 80-85% generating power on the downhill trip. That is loosing 30% of the power generated.
How much solar and wind power will be required considering those losses and to make up for days without solar or wind generation?
Are the environmentalists going to approve building dams and flooding land ?
Any body see a challenge in logistics? The amount of solar panels, the size of a dam, how many trains up how many mountains. The efficiency would be about 80-85% pushing the train uphill and approx 80-85% generating power on the downhill trip. That is loosing 30% of the power generated.
How much solar and wind power will be required considering those losses and to make up for days without solar or wind generation?
Are the environmentalists going to approve building dams and flooding land ?