Fact or fiction - AG tractor related lawsuits

[slowrev]

Been thinking lately...and yes I know that is dangerous, but anyway I personally know of 3 deaths and maybe 8 maimings related to tractors and their implements. There is a lot of talk about lawsuits and grey market tractors, ROPS, etc... this is sort of a survey to try and get a feel of how many really happen. None of those incidents I know of resulted in a lawsuit.

And I am not a lawyer and believe that no one should sue a manufacturer because of a plain accident or the result of someones carelessness. This is sort of a mythbusters kind of thing.

If you desire please report any AG tractor/implement related lawsuits that you actually know about. This does not include lawnmowers/lawntractors or other similiar consumer types of eauipment, Just AG tractor/implement related lawsuits.

I figure with the member coverage we have this should be as scientific as most polls we hear about on the news /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks for your consideration/input.

Ben

 

[Soundguy]

Funny you should mention this. I read a few other tractor sites, and a couple months ago, a new member popped up and started asking very specific safety and design related questions about antique ford tractors.

A few of us became suspicious as it sounded as if the poster was leading the answer with the question.. like " I've heard these tractors are really dangerous.. so....... "

Anyway.. a few of us figured it was someone fishing for public opinion issue. Eventually one of the members emailed and asked the poster what was going on.

Without going into any detail, the poster revealed that they were part of a legal team working on a case involving a death and an antique tractor... they woudn'nt say any more, and subsequently stoped posting on the issue. ( I'm not surprised.. 100% of the responses attested to the good design features of the tractor in question.. and if an accident occoured in the manner in which was detailed in the poster's questions.. that it was a clear case of operator error.

A few of us got to talking again.. and it was or collective opinion ( though no way to verify ) that it was one of those trail lawyers assistant doing a little bit of opinion polling, or testing the waters to see what the general safety consensus was concerning these tractors. We speculated that someone must have borrowed / used on of these antique fords.. got killed.. and their family / estate was now suing the owner, etc.. and they were trying to find out if it was going to be an easy win.. in other words.. what did people think about tractor safety.

Like I said.. we have no way to verify anything past what we were told ( or if what we were told was even true )... however it had that 'feel' to it..

Consensue was that tractor safety was up to the operator, baring some catastrophic failure / glaring manufacturing defect. Also it was pointed out that we felt it would be hard to point a finger at a manufacturing defect that suddenly appeared on a 50-60 year old used tractor that has had multiple owners... Perhaps the unit was past its usefull or intended lifespan.. or it was due to a incorrect repair made by the owner.. or even a previous owner.

I see about one tractor accident appear in the newspaper every month... though this is the first time I've actually 'seen' a lawsuit arise from it.

Soundguy

 

[slowrev]

Thanks for the Reply Soundguy,
I had one reply from Milkman about a tractor related lawsuit on this issue up in the JD forum. I can assure everyone that I do not even like lawyers and have no thoughts of sueing anyone, and sure hope I never have to entertain that idea. Although the idea of sueing a lawyer does have some appeal /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I am coming to the conclusion that the "frivilous " lawsuit thing is mostly hype for other purposes. I do not deny that stupid lawsuits do occur and ridiculous amounts are sometimes awarded, just that it is being hyped up.

I was not sure why no one seemed to be responding to this question. Maybe I had ticked everyone off or thought I was some sort of double naught spy or something.

Ben

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Ben, not at all tractor related, but I have personally been sued a couple dozen times. I've never lost. But being a business owner, in a somewhat controversial industry (main product line is tobacco), makes me somewhat of a target. I've been up on federal RICO charges and all sorts of other things including getting sued by a guy who showed up for work drunk and was terminated for being drunk and starting a fight on the job (he sued me for discrimination). From what I can see, all were groundless and most were thrown out, others were simply won by my lawyers.

I can honestly tell you that you frivilous lawsuits occur all the time.

My wife used to be a "private banker" and her clients were wealthy and she would rattle off horror stories of lawsuits that her clients were facing. Doctors have it even worse, a woman drinks heavily during pregnacny, gives birth to a child with some level of mental retardation (major preventable cause is alcohol during pregnancy) and then she sues the doctor for $1 Million. Sounds crazy, happens every day. Talk to a pediatrician, and anesthesiologist or OB/GYN and ask what their insurance payments are . . . $100,000 to $350,000 in annual insurance premiums are NORMAL for those folks and then we complain that health insurance bills are high. Go blame the lawyers like VP candidate Edwards!

What it really boils down to is that in society today people will not accept responsibility for their own stupid actions. So they turn to the shysters to get them cash. Most times the things get settled out of court because it is cheaper to pay off people than it is to fight them and prove yourself innocent. By the way, most people who have sued me have never met me, but it doesn't stop them from naming me personally in a suit. It used to bother me. Now I just fight it. For me it is a principle thing, I "settled" a couple times and that never sat well with me. So the last big suit I was named in I fought it until not only the guy who sued me ran out of money, but his lawyer filed bankruptcy.

 

[MossRoad]

Let's please keep it tractor related and don't bring the politics into it, folks. I know they can be related, but the post is tetering and leaning towards the political and with elections so close, etc... Thanks for your cooperation. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Libertine]

Bob_Surka:

<font color="blue">it is hard to describe to people who have not experienced the junk lawsuits what is really happening </font>

Absolutely. I just ended a 5 week nightmare (yesterday) myself. Get this. The Missouri supreme court ruled that a product/merchandise I happen to sell occassionaly was really not merchandise (not sales taxable) i.e. the Court created yet another "legal fiction". We had only sold a few of these items. If I had not reported it as a taxable sale, not collected the sales tax & sent it in, and I was audited I could have been prosecuted for filing a false sales tax return. One of the Supreme court judges wrote a separate opinion suggesting a class action lawsuit and sure enough within a few hours (the lawyer had to have had prior knowledge I would think) a class action suit was filed against 420 Missouri businesses who sell that type of item. The victims ranged from two bit operators like me to large NYSE corporations. In my case, I had previously simply refunded the sales tax to the cusomers (it amounted to a bit over $100) out of my own pocket without planning to apply for any refund from the State. I was still drawn into it and it required, ultimately, putting a legal "gun" to the head of the lawyer and making him an offer he couldn't refuse before he finally dismissed us from the case.

These people who have never been the victim of what amounts to legalized extortion have no idea what's going on. They have no idea of the products they are NOT getting because of this situation. They have no idea of the destruction to the economy because of all of this.

The suit someone mentioned about a tricyle tractor doesn't surprise me. There are LOTS of things that, to be effective, have to be used with care. ANY machinery, tractors included, can be dangerous if you don't pay attention to what you're doing. You mentioned the Suzuki that was driven off the market because stupid people were allowed to buy it. Remember what happened to the Corvair in the 1960s? That was a nice little car.

Anybody in business who makes anything, produces anything, actually does anything useful is at risk, including, of course, doctors. There's an expression somewhere in the xxxxxx (better not say where or risk deletion) to the effect, they know not what they do.

JEH

 

[Libertine]

slowrev (and anybody else who actually believes this)

<font color="blue">I am coming to the conclusion that the "frivilous " lawsuit thing is mostly hype for other purposes. </font>

If you actually believe the above, you are simply ignorant of the facts. If you will use your imagination for a moment, I will try to put you into what business owners face all the time . . .

Imagine you drive to work every day down the main street through a town. The speed limit signs say 40 maximum and there is a 30 minimum (to make traffic flow better). You're a good citizen and obey the signs. The street passes a hospital, or better yet a school. Some kid runs out into the street and gets hit. There is a suit. It winds its way up and a final decision by a high court is that the speed limit SHOULD have been 20 going by the school.

A class action suit is initiated naming ALL people who passed there in the past 30 days - data obtained from tapes made by a camera designed to catch drug sales to the school kids - for "reckless endangerment" of the children. The lead defendant is a trucking company (they have more assets). The Court doesn't even have to notify you, that's up to the "plaintiff" attorney. Whatever damages are awarded go into a "fund" out of which the attorneys are paid first, then the "fund administrator" and whatever is left (pennies) goes to the victims (the so-called endangered children and their families).

The trucking companies' attorney is supposed to represent you too (as a member of the "class" of defendants). But whatever the Court (and stupid jury) does to the trucking company could be done to you also. So, they could assess a $50,000 (or who knows how much) fine against everyone. After all, "recklessly endangering" children makes good news copy, generates sympathy from a friendly jury, etc. If that happens you could appeal it of course. And who knows, after years in Court, $10,000s in attorney fees, etc. you might get the judgement reduced or overturned.

slowrev, make an effort to put yourself into the above senario and you may be able to grasp the problem. Imagine its YOU and YOUR LIFE that got caught up in something like that. You did nothing wrong, it wasn't you that hit the kid, or, even the trucking company drivers. Has that exact example ever happened? Maybe not, I don't know (although it wouldn't surprise me if it had). But I do know FOR AN ABSOLUTE FACT that analogous things like that HAPPEN ALL THE TIME. It's happened to me.

Because such things seem so insane, because you have not been caught up in it, you are oblivious to what's going on. Your original post had to do with tractor legal issues. Ask Muhammad, he could be sued by someone who bought a tractor recommended on this site and was in an accident. Anyone who's posted here could be named as a co-defendant in a class action suit for damages. 10,000 members who settled for $100 each is a $1,000,000 lawsuit. And usually, this type of suit is designed to be "settled" - like paying off a protection racket. The only reason it hasn't happened is jurisdictional, tracking everybody down, etc. Also, I suspect many of us would come to Muhammad's defense.

It is NOT hype, slowrev. It's REAL.

JEH

 

[wroughtn_harv]

The one thing that seems to be forgotten in all this is it's the common citizen who is responsible enough to vote most of the time that makes the decision to punish the defendant with a large sum decision.

The attorneys for both sides have equal opportunity to explain their case. Then a jury decides.

Tort reform is an insult to us, the common people. It says we're too stupid to understand right from wrong.

What the anti trial lawyers want is to eliminate defending their actions in a court of law.

That's unAmerican.

It's all about opportunity. That's what America is, right? land of opportunity?

You have the opportunity to make, sell, or do what you want as long as it doesn't infringe upon the safety and welfare of others.

If you do make or sell something that causes harm then they have the opportunity to seek damages.

To deny either party opportunity is wrong, unAmerican even.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Harv, I'm going to have to say that your view is very simplistic because it leaves out he "money" factor, as well as "class envy" and "insurance."

Toss those three components into the picture and things change. It is very common to hear (I've heard it more than a few times myself): "but the insurance company will pay so nobody really gets hurt." And I've heard other very similarly insane and inane comments from people who try to "justify" junk lawsuits.

Feel free to believe what you wrote, but greed is the underlying component that drives these suits and when you combine greed with a lack of responsibility for your own actions and toss in the 3 components mentioned above, then you can see how a "sympathetic" jury will grant awards (sometimes a few thousand $$$, sometimes millions of $$$) to the idiot who was stupid but who is "unfortunate, underprivleged, etc"

Me, I choose to believe the reality that is opposite of what you describe, simply because I've sat on the wrong side of more than a few fivolus lawsuits.

 

[slowrev]

Bob,
I guess I should not have thrown in the frivilous lawsuit rhetoric phrase. sorry, I don't want a political thing going either /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
But back to the origional intent on the post, still only one knowledge of a tractor lawsuit ? hmmm maybe the grey tractor thing is about money, not the liability excuse that the tractor corps hide behind.

Ben