Fence Building Questions

   / Fence Building Questions #1  

patrick_g

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Jul 24, 2006
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Location
South Central OK
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Kubota Grand L-4610HSTC
This post does involve tractor work (but not the central theme) so let me know if I shouldn't ask it here.

I will be building a new fence. It will have the hollow vinyl posts and vinyl slats that are supposed to be good for holding in livestock. I have a 3PH mounted PTO driven cement mixer and a 3PH mounted PHD. Unless someone gives me good reasons to do otherwise I am thinking I will use the PHD to auger 12 inch diameter holes. I also have a 9 inch auger but I need to be sure I can place the posts DEAD ON layout so the extra "wiggle" room from the larger hole may be a good idea even though it takes more materials and effort to fill the hole.

I am planning to fill the hole with a mixture of limestone "screenings" (small gravel down to dust and everything in between) and Portland cement. I may add some larger gravel if that meets with significant approval here on TBN.

I do not intend to add water to the mix but will use the mixer to mix the dry ingredients, fill tamp, fill tamp, etc. and then let ground moisture cure the cement over time.

I will fill the hollow posts from the bottom to the height of the first plank with the mixture. This should help prevent the post from collapsing at ground level from a good side load (say a 1000 pounder leans into it.) Does anyone think I should use a different recipe for the "grout" I put inside the post? Even filling a post with sand makes it stronger as it prevents premature collapse and easy bending.

I can "drill" all the holes and then change implements to the mixer to set the posts. If there is sufficient commentary regarding adding water I would consider adding water to the holes in advance and pouring some on top afterwards but I really don't want to have to transport enough water to mix regular concrete and deal with the wet mud. I haven't measured the proposed fence line yet but estimate a bit over a quarter mile. This is a DIY project with some help from an experienced friend.

To help ensure that the fence does indeed contain stock I will drill holes in the vinyl plastic posts and thread a hot wire through it attached to a powerful fence charger. That way when they try to stick their head through to access the GREENER grass on the other side they will get a negative reinforcement. I had a custom HD fencer built that is supposed to be good for bulls and beefalo and runs on 12 volts. I will install solar electric panels and a deep cycle battery to power the charger.

Any comments are welcome. If this post belongs somewhere else, let me know.

Pat
 
   / Fence Building Questions #2  
Also take note of your area's winter time low temps. Vinyl will shatter in extreme cold if kicked hard enough ...

I used to want vinyl for my horses, thinking that it looked so nice, but after a while, it looks too nice ... not rustic enough for my tastes... to each his own ! :)

Good luck on the fence and be sure to post a pic or 5

Don't forget to put some concrete in the holes where the gates are located ...
 
   / Fence Building Questions #3  
FWIW (For what its worth) we have a white vinly fence in our neighborhood that boarders the road. It does look good but it has some holes in it from the mowers shooting out rocks at it. It also gets a lot of green mold at the bottom. I would have preferred a brown fence.
For cost & ruggedness reasons, I put up a 1/2 acer wood fence for my little horses (Great Danes) but my concern is the maintenance in 5 to 10 years.

Good luck.
 
   / Fence Building Questions #4  
patrick_g said:
I will be building a new fence. It will have the hollow vinyl posts and vinyl slats that are supposed to be good for holding in livestock.

Pat,

When you say "vinyl slats" are you refering to a three or four rail fence? I'm putting in a vinyl three rail fence on my place and have a few thoughts on it.

Do you have the fence or know who you are buying it from yet? I shopped around and decided to buy mine from Gardner Fence Systems - Horse Fencing and PVC Fencing for $3.25 a foot. I bought 1,000 feet at the time and the tool to crimp the ends when you cut a rail. The tool was around $100 and they said they'd buy it back for that price when I was done with it.

My experience with vinyl fence started out about 15 years ago when my girfriend at the time had a horse and the people who owned the boarding facility put up vinyl fence there. It worked fine for keeping the horses in at first, but then the fence started to fall apart. They didn't set the posts very well and they moved. They added concrete and that helped, but the fence was also cheap, solid PVC and it got brittle. The last time I was there, it was in peices from either the animals, or something else.

I was very sceptical of vinyl fence after that and refused to consider it for myself for a very long time. Then I read about the new methods for making it and how they solved those strength and age issues by first creating the post from a material that isn't affected by the weather. I forget the name of it, but it's a gray color inside the posts. Then they put a white materail on the outside of the post to give it the white color. This bonding process is what you need to be sure to have when selecting a fence. Neither Home Depot or Lowes sell this type of posts. The rails are solid white vinyl with ribs in the middle for strength. I've never heard of them failing, it's just the posts that had problems.

I use a 12 inch auger with mine and also keep my clamshells with me when putting in posts. It's a trick to get the auger in the exact right spot and keep it there when starting it. I've found that using a shovel to start the hole before putting the auger in there gurantees that the auger wont wonder. The next problem is keeping it straight all the way down. If my wife is around, she'll watch to make sure nothing changes, but if I'm working by myself, it's very dificult to keep it straight on every hole. Things like roots and rocks in the ground will turn the bit and you end up with an angled hole. Once this happens, there's no way to straighten it out.

This is where the clamshells are so important. Lots of holes need straightening after they are dug!!!

From your other posts, I know you are a very detailed and precise person, so this might not apply to you, but I can't dig more then a few holes at a time without getting off course. I can measure out twenty holes, but by the tenth one, things have changed and I'm digging by hand to get the holes lined up and spaced properly again. When I work with Steph, we drill a hole and set the post one at a time. This way each one is exact and perfect with minimal fuss. When I work alone, I drill several holes and then curse myself for being in a rush!! hahahaha

I can't comment on your mixture for filling the posts as I just use clay to pack mine. About every hundred feet or so, I set one in concrete and fill it all the way up. They say to put two pieces of rebar in oposite corners first, then fill with concrete. I don't have any animals yet, so it's anybodies guess wether this is suffiicient or not.

Gates are something that vinyl fences really fall short on. From what I've seen, the gates made from vinyl fence are pure junk. The have a few variations of posts that you can use to make them strong, but none are realy all that great.

I discovered 5 inch square steel tubing that looks just like the vinyl posts when you paint it white. I weld on the hinges for regular farm gates and use them instead. The square tubing set in concrete is stronger then anything else out there and pretty much bullet proof for supporting a gate. Then to make it blend in with the vinyl fence, I screw three rails onto the gate. I line the rails up so they are level with the rails on the fence and cut them to the same size as the gate. Usualy 12 feet. From a distance, it blends in real nice. Up close you can tell it's a gate, but it's so nice that it's not a bad thing at all.

Eddie
 

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   / Fence Building Questions
  • Thread Starter
#5  
Thanks everyone for the comments!

Different Vinyl formulations produce different UV and cold weather characteristics. I made a couple repairable holes in vinyl corners (siding) on my mom's house; one from a tossed stick from brush hog and one from a powerful weed eater.

Out of concern for cold weather flex characteristics I put the form fitting rigid foam insulation behind my Dutch lap style vinyl siding where there would be the likelihood of it being hit with chairs, hands of folks leaning, and such.

Now about the fence. I don't anticipate a kicking problem as cattle are less prone to kick a fence than a horse, at least away from close containment situations like a corral or sorting facility. I go with pipe for those uses. I have been warned about the need for accuracy to get every other post on 16 ft centers really close to the layout. Hopefully the 12 inch holes instead of 9 inch holes will reduce the amount of sweat time with the idiot sticks (manual post hole digger tool.)

My fencing experienced friend was going to get me the materials at his cost but said the big box stores are beating the price he gets from the distributor right now and that I wiold be better off going to the big box price wise.

He suggested that the vinyl gates SUCK and that I should go wood or steel. I will go steel. I prefer 16 ft gates way more than smaller gates. He also recommends that I use steel posts painted white and set in concrete along side the vinyl posts where the gate goes. Once painted white, the steel blends in.

I looked at some materials at a big box store and they had the hollow vinyl posts that were all brown except for the outer coating. My friend with fence building experience is back in town and came over this AM and helped me pop some T-posts in prep for removing a barbed wire fence. I left the wire up to keep tension on the unmodified part, just removing the posts. Tomorrow I will but in a welded pipe stretch fixture/corner fixture to terminate the part of the barbed wire fence that will remain and serve as a transition to vinyl where the vinyl takes off at right angles to the barbed wire.

In anticipation of his coming I welded up a post popper. IT was made mostly from a scrap of pipe about a 3/8 inch cut off from a 4 inch HD steel pipe. You use it with the FEL and it worked super good till it broke. Snapped clean. Apparently my welding make the pipe brittle or more likely the water quenching did. I found a scrap of smaller pipe close to the size I really wanted. It fits over the T-post really easily but is probably less than 2 inch pipe (I didn't measure it.) I'll make a sketch and attach it to save trying to describe it so much.

In the sketch you see it is just a LARGE wedding ring looking thing. The pipe is about 1/4 inch thick and I cut off a piece about 3/8 to 7/16 in. I welded a scrap of steel to it to get better load handling than welding the chain to the ring directly and IT gives a little leverage to hold the ring tight to the post to engage the little lumps on the T-post.

In use you put the ring over the T-post with the chain side of the ring down toward the ground. When you take a strain with the FEL the ring cocks and will grip the T-post. It doesn't slip past the "lumps" on the T-post. It is way faster than wrapping a chain.

You don't want to use a long piece of pipe as it can't "cock" sideways under load and will slip off. If you make the ring too thin it will distort and get messed up under load too easily. This is my second design (what I intended in the first place) but didn't see the pipe I made it from the day I made the first prototype. If it isn't strong enough I will take another ring, slice through it so I can expand it and weld it over the outside of the "inner" ring making it thicker/stronger.

The dirt isn't really dry so the posts are coming out easily thanks to the FEL. If it were dryer it would be a tougher job. You then lay the FEL bucket on the ground with the cutting edge near the post, put the post popper ring on the post and attach the chain (with a hook) to the bucket and use curl to pull on the post. This is much more force than a straight pull.

My fencewise friend is the one who told me about running a hot wire through the vinyl posts between the rails to train stock to not try to stick their heads through between the rails. It seems once they get their heads through they always want to lean just an inch further for a bite of grass and then just one more till the fence is messed up.

Sorry about the poor sketch. I may be a lot of things but an artist is not one of them. I promise to get some pix as this project rolls along.

Oh, by the way... I was thinking that if I used two short gates (split gate?) instead of a 16 footer that the steel posts with the hinges on on them would not have to be nearly so HD and take as much concrete to hold up. Is there a down side to doing that?

Pat
 
   / Fence Building Questions #6  
I have used Pea gravel to back fill many a post.. It is 98% compacted once it hits the ground. Probably the fastest way to fill a hole too.and it could be funneled into the top of the post too. Good luck
 
   / Fence Building Questions #7  
Did you forget to attach the drawing?
 
   / Fence Building Questions
  • Thread Starter
#8  
BTDT said:
Did you forget to attach the drawing?

Apparently! I used to wonder at what age senility would rear its ugly head and now I know! They say the first two things to go are your memory and ...

Hmmm, I don't remember the other one...

Version two was made with smaller diameter pipe and NOT quenched in water (JUST HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO LEARN PATIENCE!!!!!)

The ID of the pipe has to be large enough, of course to let you put the thing over the T-post. The contact area between the chain and piece of pipe would be rather small since the "length" of the piece of pipe is so short (about a half inch on the second one.) So I use the scrap of flat stock to spread the load. I weld the scrap to the ring and the chain to the scrap. The ID of the pipe has to allow for the obstruction of the plate and still fit over the T-post.

In use the plate and chain side of the ring goes on the T-post first (chain side down.) You want to work from the "smooth" side of the T-post and if the ring slips a bit try again with a little lateral pressure to help seat the ring under one of the "lumps" on the T-post.

Your mileage may vary but this is way faster than fussing with wrapping a chain. If you are working alone you have to get off the tractor to put the ring on, pull the post up and drive to next post, get out of tractor, remove previous pulled post from ring, and put ring over next post.

It goes fast. Remember if you can't get enough force to pull the post with your hydraulics then put the bucket on the ground, hitch the chain appropriately, and use the CURL to pull up on the chain. (Like using a claw hammer to pull a nail.)

Pat (CAREFULLY CHECKING TO ADD PIX)
 

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   / Fence Building Questions #9  
Pat,

Do you read Progresive Farmer magazine? They have a page of ideas people use around the farm in every issue and your post remover reminded me of one that I thought was very cool.

Instead of the chain, they took the piece of pipe and bolted it to the side of the FEL. Then you lower the pipe over the post and curl the bucket so it locks the post into the pipe. Lift the FEL and the post comes right out. Uncurl the bucket and the post falls off.

The beauty of this method is you never have to get off the tractor and you just drive from post to post.

Eddie
 
   / Fence Building Questions
  • Thread Starter
#10  
ericjeeper said:
I have used Pea gravel to back fill many a post.. It is 98% compacted once it hits the ground. Probably the fastest way to fill a hole too.and it could be funneled into the top of the post too. Good luck

I thought Pea gravel was an option but my fence experienced friend said no, we'd be better off with the rougher material with fines included. Go figure. It works for you but he wants to use the crushed limestone screenings.

When you say pea gravel... do you mean Pea sized relatively smooth and roughly round material with no fines (and dust) or do you mean crushed limestone about pea sized? The former is what he doesn't want to use and the latter (with fines and dust) is about what he is touting.)

He recommends we only fill the hollow post up to the level of the lowest horizontal. I analyzed that and concur. If we filled the whole post the zones where the rails went through the post would not fill and be a "soft" spot. Then when a side force was applied to the post the filled (stiffened) part of the post would not give nearly as much and the force would tend to distort the soft areas where the rails go through.

I suppose if I needed a really tough post for some reason I could make a square steel tube insert with slots to accept the rails.

Pat
 

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