Ford 4000 3 cyl Diesel, I have pressure, I do not have 3 point

[john15nlt]

Ford 4000, I think 68, about 5 years ago I lost all compression and parked it. I thought it was worse than it was and finally broke it down a couple of months ago. It was a head gasket. So now, several months later she's up and running. However, I do not have any 3-point controls. It's a dead stick. I visually checked the hydraulic fluid moving by pulling a plug. Last weekend I removed the lid and rebuilt it. Nothing looked out of place but it got new seals anyway—still no 3-point. Today I plugged in a gauge to the front-end loader quick connect and it shows 4k, so it's not the pump. So now the question is it the safety valve on the back of the 3-point cylinder (under the lid) or is it the relief valve that's underneath the axle? I do not mind replacing both but looking for everyone's best guess. OR am I missing something and it's neither of these 2 things?

Thanks in advance.

 

[oldnslo]

If showing 4,000 PSI do not operate it till you find the problem since I suspect should be around 2,500 PSI Max. And running at 4000 will potentially damage something.

Was loader removed to repair the tractor? Were any hydraulic lines removed?

Does the loader have its own valve mounted by the loader or does it use the rear remotes and levers by the seat?

If seperate valve by loader how many line or hoses are connected to this valve?

 

[john15nlt]

Thanks for your response: 4k let me clarify I connected the gauge and fired up the engine and the gauge moved significantly in the direction of 4k but as soon as I saw I had pressure I shut it off. So it may not be above 2500 I was only looking for life.

There is an aluminum block-off plate and a single rear remote on top of that. 4 lines are coming from the block-off plate that feeds into dual lever control for the FEL. The FEL has 2 dual-acting cylinders. The FEL was removed really because it was stuck in a pasture and it seemed easier to move a tractor without a FEL than to move one with one. So yes it was removed to service the tractor.

 

[jonsstihl]

sounds like you are possibly dead heading the system, especially if the loader was still disconnected from the tractor. 3pt hitch is usually last in the circuit so any valve actuated before the 3pt hitch would make it not work. do you have detents on the rear remote? is the loader valve or the remote valve moved from the neutral position.

If the loader is still removed I would put it back on before doing any more trouble shooting. that vintage of tractor is not usually designed to have the loader removed. Quick connect style like the newer ones where the loader valve stays on the tractor.

 

[Harry in Ky]

Just guessing here, but I know those systems pretty well, and the aluminum adapter plate probably has three (not four) lines connecting it to the loader valve. IF (and I say if) the loader valve was properly configured with a power beyond sleeve on the pressure out port, and if the loader works and the three point doesn't, that's a good indication the pressure line is correct, but the other two need to be swapped. Proof of that would be start the tractor, set the lift arm control to raise the arms then work the loader. If the lift goes up while the loader is operating the hoses are hooked up backwards.

 

[john15nlt]

sounds like you are possibly dead heading the system, especially if the loader was still disconnected from the tractor. 3pt hitch is usually last in the circuit so any valve actuated before the 3pt hitch would make it not work. do you have detents on the rear remote? is the loader valve or the remote valve moved from the neutral position.

If the loader is still removed I would put it back on before doing any more trouble shooting. that vintage of tractor is not usually designed to have the loader removed. Quick connect style like the newer ones where the loader valve stays on the tractor.

That would be a bingo, did not know what a dead head was, and did not know the loader would cause this as it's always been attached. Thank you for your help.

 

[john15nlt]

Just guessing here, but I know those systems pretty well, and the aluminum adapter plate probably has three (not four) lines connecting it to the loader valve. IF (and I say if) the loader valve was properly configured with a power beyond sleeve on the pressure out port, and if the loader works and the three point doesn't, that's a good indication the pressure line is correct, but the other two need to be swapped. Proof of that would be start the tractor, set the lift arm control to raise the arms then work the loader. If the lift goes up while the loader is operating the hoses are hooked up backwards.

The 3-point issue was apparently because the loader was disconnected and dead head which I am guessing is a block flow or no flow.

The aluminum block has 2 lines out to the loader, the third line is for a ? single action rear remote?, it currently just has a line with an open end on it because the existing one leaked and occasionally I would hit the detent valve and end up with hydraulic fluid all over me. The loader does have a BYD port which I guess is the Power Beyond but please educate me, is the loader configured properly? Is the single rear remote for a single-action cylinder? Is there a way to configure it for a dual-action cylinder?

A couple of more what if's I understand cylinder speed is related to flow not pressure, which I am guessing is what it is. Is there a way to add a secondary hydraulic pump to get the flow up and make the loader more responsive? It has plenty of lift and power it just doesn't move very fast which makes everything take longer than it should.

 

[Harry in Ky]

That does make sense. My mistake on misreading your first post. I got the impression the loader was already back on and hooked up/

And mo, the loader valve is not properly plumbed. It may work the way it is now, but that doesn't make it right. It's obviously power beyond capable, it's even marked so. Two problems.

Problem one. You only have a pressure out and a pressure in port on the block under the remote valve. That's not the block I prefer to use. I like the one with three ports, one of which is a sump return. On the 4000 adding a sump return can be difficult. Those I'm aware of with that style block use the hydraulic fill port on the back for a sump dump. Makes it rather awkward when you need to add fluid you have to remove the return hose an fittings to get the port free in order to put oil in. With the right style block the sump port is right there.

I'm not saying you MUST do this, it's just another choice you get to make. If it's working today, it will probably still be working tomorrow, but there are down sides to operating it this way, In power beyond configuration, when using the loader the oil returning from the cylinder goes directly to sump through a relatively free flowing path. As it is now, that returning oil must go through the lift system first and then back into the sump. If you're carrying something on the lift, and operate the loader the oil in the system is performing double duty. If the lift settles just a bit the linkage directs oil flow to bring it back up to whatever position the levers are set for. When you use the loader and lift a load the return oil is also trying to raise the three point back to set point. Sometimes that works out okay, sometimes it doesn't. I've had to remedy that situation a few times before. You might take a few minutes to read through this, it may be easier for you to digest than my rambling.

Power Beyond Option Parts | Cross Mfg.

The power beyond sleeve prevents subjecting the exhaust or return passages and spool seals of the control valve to back pressure.

crossmfg.com

Problem 2. The power beyond sleeve you need for your particular valve may or may not be easy to find, depending on what make and model valve it is/ The old Gresen valves (if that's what you have) were very common at one time, and many are still in use today. Now owned by Parker, the sleeve Parker supplies for some of them are outrageous in price.

As for the single acting valve, I won't swear to this, but I think the knob on the front of it when backed out a few turns will allow the valve to operate in double acting mode. You would need to remove the plug on top and add a fitting and another hose. I THINK that may be the case. There were a number of different valves used on those tractors, not all were identical in operation.

 

[john15nlt]

I think you are referring to this part Tisco HV5902, which was neither hard to find nor expensive. I read your reference and I read your description and while I do not fully understand all of it, I know we want a clear path back to the sump which we do not have currently. The part I guess I am confused about is the power beyond the port and the sleeve. So what we need is a line that comes out of the PBYD port and would plug into the 3rd port on the block and/or the hydraulic fill port on the transmission case.

The issue is we would need a sleeve (adapter) that would allow us use a standard connection between these two areas instead of a plug which is what is currently in there.

Do I have this right? If not please try again.

If this plumbing connection was corrected to the way it should be.. would that increase the flow. The hydraulics on this FEL are terribly slow and I understand speed is proportional to flow not pressure. If this would not increase flow what would?

Finally If I wanted to add a third spool to the FEL for a thumb is there a way to add another lever or do I need to really just switch to a 3-spool valve?

"As for the single acting valve, I won't swear to this, but I think the knob on the front of it when backed out a few turns will allow the valve to operate in double acting mode. You would need to remove the plug on top and add a fitting and another hose. I THINK that may be the case. There were a number of different valves used on those tractors, not all were identical in operation." I found this reference in the service manual I have, I think you are correct so while not convenient. it looks like I could add a thumb and some long lines from the rear remote (I am not serious about this it looks to be a nightmare)

 

[Harry in Ky]

Yes, that is the valve block I use for this type of thing. It has all three ports, plus it has ORB ports, not pipe thread. (I literally hate pipe thread ports)

No, the power beyond port on the valve (with the proper sleeve) sends oil back into the lift system. The sump return port on the loader valve (the one now in use) goes to sump or the fill plug on the tractor. On the 5902 block I think the ports are marked. I think it's something like pressure out, pressure in, and tank. I won't swear to that.

As for added flow. Again, a no on that. The internal pump on the 4000 has only 4 - 5 GPM flow and no valve configuration will change that.

About the third valve, that's another decision you need to make. I can tell you using the remote under the seat will work, but it will also get get old quickly. I have used solenoid divertor valves. They work but I'm no fan of adding the needed wiring. No matter how you do it, that comes with builtin drawbacks. I prefer to add a third single spool valve onto the existing loader valve bracket by whatever means necessary. I try to mount it such that it's possible to move from one handle to another with minimal hand/arm movement and keeping the movement as comfortable as possible. It does however require some fabricating, bracket wise, and some custom hoses and fittings. Not a problem for me, as I have a lot of scrap metal to choose from and I make my own hoses. Not everyone has that option.