Oil & Fuel Fuel knock and white smoke...TC21D

[TCBoomer]

I have 1543 hrs on this machine now and has been trouble free. About 2-3 weeks ago, it developed an extended cranktime before lighting off. At first, it was only a few seconds, if that. Once it fired, it ran well all day. The last 4 or 5 days it has increased to about 10-15 secs...hot or cold. I checked and serviced all the obvious and found nothing. Possibly the inj pump leaking down? No external leaks and does not appear to be leaking fuel into the crankcase.

Now for the million dollar question, here's what happened...
Last night after I changed the oil and filter, I decided to dig deeper and see if I could find the cause of hard starting. It had sat for about 45 mins and was still warm. I loosened the #1 inj line at the nozzle and cranked it over...bingo, no fuel! Then after about another 5 sec or so cranking, fuel appeared and it started. I tightened the line and left it running. A few mins later...KNOCK< KNOCK< KNOCK<KNOCK , and white smoke! I almost died!!! Since I was familar with diesels, I recognized the sound and could smell the fuel, so I was slightly relieved. The knock is not constant, just every few mins or so, it rattles and smokes and then quiets down. But what has me confused is why did the knock develop after I cracked a line open /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I've cracked many diesel lines open to bleed them and never had this happen. Could it be coincidental that the ongoing problem I was chasing decided to show it's ugly face at the same time I cracked the line???

Sorry for the long wind...I did try to shorten it up
FWIW...tomorrow AM I'm headed to the dealer for some assistance. Hoping they can test the inj's for pop off press, leakage or spray pattern problems. If the inj's are OK, I guess that leaves the pump or timing to be at fault. If I can't get this rig up and running correctly ASAP, I may be looking at the TC29DA. Like real soon..........wonder if they stock one for immediate delivery???


I'M SO BUMMED /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Chris527]

Hey Tc

Did you notice when you changed your oil if there was a lot of raw fuel smell in your oil? White smoke is unburned fuel and sounds like perhaps you may have a nozzle that be sticky and dumping raw fuel in and that will for sure cause a knocking sound, not sure what kind of injector pump you have but if somthing is going wrong in the rotories or barrels in the pump and not maintaining proper pressures would make for hard starting, or as you said, leaking down and drawing air in. I know with the bigger diesel engines I have worked on a weak nozzle when cracked open will shoot fuel back out from the compression shooting it back out like a supersoaker water gun compared to the other nozzles. Considering what you said about no fuel when you first cracked the line, you may have a suction leak in one of your lines or around your filter. Those leakdown problems were always a bear to diagnose. After running for a wile i would let it set overnight and try it the next day. If I had a long cranking before it started I actually went as far as running a hose into a 5 gal bucket of fuel with a clear beer hose so I could see the bubbles as it was leaking back. Just took it a section at a time and would usually find where the leak was. It took some doing trying to get the right fittings to fit the lines to connect to the fittings but a sure fire way to find the leak.

Chris

 

[TCBoomer]

Hey Chris

Thanks for the reply. I didn't notice any fuel odor in the oil. I'm inclined to think the pump is the culprit since there was no fuel when I cracked the line and first cranked it. I've used the clear hose to check for air on other diesels and thought of doing that too. But like you said, chasing down leaks can be a PITA!! I went to the dealer this AM and they confirmed my suspicions, based on the symptoms.

Read on for an update...

 

[TCBoomer]

Jeez... I finally get back on TBN, post a couple times and then my ISP or something has problems. I finished typing what went down at the dealer, hit the 'continue' to post it, and then I get a page that says "site not found"???????? So I backed up one page to find my post, and POOOF!!... gone like the wind. Couldn't find TBN's site for the next hour either, so I gave up. Gotta love puters /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

So here goes again...
Talked to the SM at the dealer and he agreed that a good chance it's a pump problem, maybe dirt or something. He did advise against a new replacement pump, instead just repair mine. OK, fine...but anyone heard of off the shelf pumps not working correctly?? Seems odd to me, but whatever. So now the good news, for me anyways. They will loan me a 2120 with a FEL while mine is being repaired. Works for me, but even the GM dealer I work at gives out loaners. Plus the estimate to repair the pump(if thats the problem) is about $1K. So looks like I might be paying a little rental fee in there. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Meanwhile I inquired about a TC24DA or the TC29DA and trading mine in. Numbers don't sound too bad, but still tempting. They'll give me $11K for my tractor, loader and MMM. 1999 TC21D, 7106 loader, and 914A MMM with 1543 hrs. The pump repair is my dime, so the trade value then drops to about $10K. I really want the TC29DA, but due to a 25 degree slope that I mow, I think I should stick with the TC24. Anybody have a comment about this issue?? I can do figure 8's with my TC21 on the slope and feel safe. But a TC29? hmmmmm..... am I /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

They gave me a price of $18,800 for a TC24DA, 12LA FEL(or is it a 14LA?) and a 914A MMM. This is CT, so things are big $$$ around here. I didn't buy my current machine at this dealer due to...forget it, that's another story. My point was that I want to purchase it locally instead of going out of state. I have given them all my biz for the parts and have gotten to know a number of guys there. This time around the sales dept does seem to have taken a 180 approach to custmers.

Enough chit chat from me...anyone care to throw their .02 worth at me regarding what I was offered? Even yur 1/2 cents worth?? /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

FWIW...I didnt counter offer his #'s. I just told him I would sleep on it. They are coming tomorrow AM to pick up my rig for repair and drop off the 2120.

 

[jwstewar]

I don't know, maybe I'm way off base here. But if I had a TC21D and had a loader & MMM that was only 5 years with only that few of hours, I don't think I would or could justify to myself paying $8,000 to get a new but stronger loader with curved arms, 3 HP, and maybe 6" on the MMM. Don't see where the 24 would do anything the 21 can't or won't do. Either pay the $1000 and get the 21 fixed or go ahead and make the leap to the 29 or 33. They should be no less stable on the slopes then the Class 1 - especially with loaded tires.

Just my 1/2 cents worth. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[twabscs]

I agree. Why not just keep the 21 and get the TC33D too. Next time there's a problem, you have a backup! Last time my TC broke down I fully understood the need to have more than one tractor around.

 

[TCBoomer]

Good point about the $8K, thanks. I didn't really look at it that way. What I do recognize as a positive point is the trade value they offered is only about $1K less than what I have invested in it. So 5 yrs use of...moving over 2000 yds of material, plowing snow(600' driveway) and mowing 2.5 acreas once or twice a week only cost me $1K. Not bad IMHO, but just that...my opinion /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm still not sure about the 29 on 25* slopes. The TC29 seems to have a high center of gravity while sitting in it. Do the loaded tires really help keep the tractor stable on a steep slope? I thought they were mostly just a counter balance for FEL work. When I cross cut this slope, I just shift my **** to the uphill side and don't even think about it. It did take awhile to find the 'fear factor' point with the 21, so I guess I'll have to learn that all over again if I buy the 29 /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[TCBoomer]

If you throw in a Bradco hoe for the 33, I'll be a player. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Oh yeah...one other thing. YOU can have the honors of convincing my wife why I need both. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

 

[jwstewar]

I've only used a tractor w/ loaded tires a couple of times and never actually owned one, but my Dad has been in the tire business now for about 45 years. According to him there are a couple of different way you can load tires. One is for weight, one is for stability. If you are loading for weight you load the tire up to about 75-80% or so, if you are loading for stability you just load it to 50-55% - keeping all of the weight below the center of the axle. Since he has been doing it for so long and is one of the most requested/sought after guys in the county when it comes time to change tires, I have to think he knows what he is talking about. Not sure what the farmers are going to do in March when he finally retires completely. As already taken just a role of teaching the younger/new guys the ropes.

 

[TCBoomer]

Thanks for the clarification. If I do trade up to the 29 or 33, I'm thinking of not loading them until I try it out. Then if I decide it's needed, I'll do it. Do you know what it costs to fill them 1/2 way with the Rim Guard? Would filling them with WW fluid be just as good?

The 2120 that the dealer loaned me does have loaded turfs on it. It'll be interesting to see how this feels on the slope.

Hope your father enjoys his retirement.