Global Warming News

[FallbrookFarmer]

I feel we're asking the wrong question. The rich of all countries will be taken care of. Do all US citizens have the health care coverage as our law makers? My question is how are the rest of the people of the given societies taken care of? Is there a reason that it is a benefit (not just moral but financial) for everyone to have basic preventive care so that a relatively simple procedure (ex hysterectomy) may take place before a cancer develops and spreads. In our country the final stages of many preventable diseases have shortened many lives and been very costly. Many people who are uninsured or under insured are not lazy but have only the skills for near minimum wage class jobs. There is no way they can afford to pay for insurance at the going rates. Should they die early because of that. (the Scrooge BG-before ghosts strategy) I predict that the Scrooge AG-after ghosts-would favor a society that provides basic healthcare for all.

Loren

ps: I was in the uninsured class for quite a while - I was farming- working 365 days a year - only 6hrs on Sundays if all went well - I was lucky - My family stayed relatively healthy I was in the "decrease the surplus population" group

A more serious reply,
The way that the politicians have framed the argument
"Let us take care of you, you don't have to worry about the laws of economics, or nature"
Of course it's scary to face our own mortality, and with it the financial burden that a lot of people will become to our families as they age, That is the seductive nature of what the politicians are offering, just give us a few more tax dollars, and few more of your rights, and we will take care of you. Please just look at how well the government has taken care of a. welfare recipients,b. public housing occupants,c.social security recipients,d...... any recipient of any government program. There are no panaceas for our problems, certainly not more government.
I would venture to say that in your community there is a church/synagogue/mosque that offers help to the indigent , Wouldn't a better course of action to have those of us who are in the business of helping people do their jobs, a let government do the things that are mandated for it to do
(provide for the common defense etc>)

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

You are capable of doing your own homework. Check national longevity and infant mortality rates for starters. Statistically, we will take a hit when compared to other more homogenous populations, but that isn't the whole story. By more homogenous I mean they have fewer and smaller pockets of poverty. Maybe our healthcare policy contributes to our larger numbers of poverty areas.

When you end the question with 'if not for socialized medicine' you are showing a bias against any result that doesn't agree with your own opinion.

A daughter of my best German friend was flown out of Germany for a procedure. When I expressed my amazement, they explained it to me, much as I have to you. I assure you, they are very ordinary people.

A 'smarter' system would be one that delivers healthcare without costing as much. Do you disagree that we pay at least 25% more than the other industrialized countries for healthcare? If Germany and other countries have determined it is more cost effective to move patients to specialists, and they pay less than we do - what is there you don't grasp in that? Based on economic principals, we don't pay $2 for something we can get for $1.

When I say 'I didn't notice' I mean I want to be careful about absolutes. If Germany has even a mild healthcare quality problem, they hid it from me well

As a person living under the NATO Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA), I paid for my health care. Fortunately, I have only been to a doctor a couple times in my adult life, and never for any serious problems. Therefore, I can only 'notice' as opposed to experience.

German workers pay into a healthcare system, I don't know the percentage of pay withheld for this. I doubt the price of gas has much to do with it.
http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/13/4/22.pdf

As to the price of gas, yes it is high, their major roads are also better built and maintained than ours. You seldom see our slapdash skim coats of asphalt applied there. Don't know how much autobahn driving you may have done, but it takes very good roads besides good cars if you want to survive 130 MPH driving in traffic.

Germany imports 100% of it's oil I believe, there is no domestic production to offset global market fluctuations. Their situation is different in that regard. Obviously, the Germans have made it a priority to reduce their dependence on foreign energy, one method is by limiting consumption through prices. Does that cost the typical German taxpayer more than our tax costs of a few wars and military bases all over the place?

As to political promises, we still haven't paid off the the two wars while cutting taxes. That was a heck of a promise, we will be paying on that one for a long time.
Dave.

As to your discovering my bias against socialized medicine, I congratulate you!
I was not the one that introduced the relative numbers
of patients moved, so I would look to you to back up your suppositions.
Re my point regarding the price of gas. I would suggest that there is a reason that a liter of benzene in Germany or other EU countries is directly related to the cost of "socialized medicine"and other "free" benefits.
There is no such thing as a free lunch, Somebody might be taking me out to lunch, but somebody is paying for it one way or another.
And yes I have done a lot of driving on the AutoBahn. Bummer ,you can't go as fast as you want anymore, only out in the country.
The Germans don't have to worry about the cost of their military/defense. Uncle Sugar takes care of it.

 

[dave1949]

Link to some info that helps to understand German healthcare:

Health Care Abroad: Germany - Prescriptions Blog - NYTimes.com

Please note, I am not trying to say everything is perfect in
Germany - lest one of you invite me to move there

It is informative to see how similar cultures solve the same problems.
Dave.

 

[keegs]

Link to some info that helps to understand German healthcare:

Health Care Abroad: Germany - Prescriptions Blog - NYTimes.com

Please note, I am not trying to say everything is perfect in
Germany - lest one of you invite me to move there

It is informative to see how similar cultures solve the same problems.
Dave.

Problem.....? What problem...?

 

[Pilot]

Dave1949,

As I said in an earlier post longevity is irrelevant. So is infant mortality. We drive farther, have more gun deaths, more obesity, a larger percentage of minorities and illegals that don't use the prenatal care that is available to them.. None of these relate to the the quality of the health care system. It's what happens after you get involved with the health care system that counts. And when you look at the numbers, survival rates for people diagnosed with various problems such as cancer and heart disease is right up there with the best.

Little different subject. 2 weeks ago on a Thursday I had an MRI for a herniated disk. The following Tuesday I had an appointment with a well respected neurosurgeon. Yesterday I had the surgery. Hospital facilities were wonderful, staff was excellent (and all the RN's were cute). This was a Catholic hospital. How would that work out in countries with socialized medicine?

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

Link to some info that helps to understand German healthcare:

Health Care Abroad: Germany - Prescriptions Blog - NYTimes.com

Please note, I am not trying to say everything is perfect in
Germany - lest one of you invite me to move there

It is informative to see how similar cultures solve the same problems.
Dave.

If you do move to Germany, go to Munchen
Funny story: On my first trip to Europe,back in 83, went with some friends to the Chinese Tower in the English Gardens. Never really was a big beer drinker, but that stuff, Wow, A few days later my wife and daughter decide to go shopping, and I figure, Hey I'm going to go back and have a couple of beers. After two beers(I'm talking liters here) I'm feeling no pain, and am walking along the Isar river in the park, and there is an attractive young women walking about fifty paces in front of me. She stops and removes her blouse, then her skirt, Next comes her bra, and then her panties, She then lays down on the grass and proceeds to get her tan with all the other nudists laying there. You know I've liked beer ever since.
Sorry I know totally off topic. But hey its a good story.

 

[czechsonofagun]

Little different subject. 2 weeks ago on a Thursday I had an MRI for a herniated disk. The following Tuesday I had an appointment with a well respected neurosurgeon. Yesterday I had the surgery. Hospital facilities were wonderful, staff was excellent (and all the RN's were cute). This was a Catholic hospital. How would that work out in countries with socialized medicine?

I can call myself an expert on socialized medicine. Did not know anything else till my 25th year. I would not dare to go and see a doctor, unless he was recommended by somebody I trust - I have quite few doctors in wider family and it was always safer to follow their advice. Just to go to any doctor you could end up stiff. Even with a recommended doctor you would spent hours and hours waiting and waiting, filling tons of paperwork and dealing with grumpy nurses. If you had to stay overnight, you would be treated to disgusting food, some roaches running around, rooms with 6 or more people together and again more rude nurses. I am not saying there were not exceptions, but the described situation prevailed.

Oh yeah and there would be shortage on something for sure - like surgical gloves or stitching silk or syringes - because it was all centrally planned and sometimes comrades in Poland, DDR, USSR or Hungary just did not reach the planned level of production.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

I can call myself an expert on socialized medicine. Did not know anything else till my 25th year. I would not dare to go and see a doctor, unless he was recommended by somebody I trust - I have quite few doctors in wider family and it was always safer to follow their advice. Just to go to any doctor you could end up stiff. Even with a recommended doctor you would spent hours and hours waiting and waiting, filling tons of paperwork and dealing with grumpy nurses. If you had to stay overnight, you would be treated to disgusting food, some roaches running around, rooms with 6 or more people together and again more rude nurses. I am not saying there were not exceptions, but the described situation prevailed.

Oh yeah and there would be shortage on something for sure - like surgical gloves or stitching silk or syringes - because it was all centrally planned and sometimes comrades in Poland, DDR, USSR or Hungary just did not reach the planned level of production.

But Comrade,
Didn't you realize that you were living in a socialist utopia.
And wasn't everything free! No doubt, given the chance you would love to return to the days of solidarity with your brothers in
the Class Struggle.
Good rule of thumb, ask the guy whose been there, done that. Thanks for the reality check. BTW the BEST beer I ever had was in Cesky Krumlov, Eggenberg.

 

[dave1949]

Dave1949,

As I said in an earlier post longevity is irrelevant. So is infant mortality. We drive farther, have more gun deaths, more obesity, a larger percentage of minorities and illegals that don't use the prenatal care that is available to them.. None of these relate to the the quality of the health care system. It's what happens after you get involved with the health care system that counts. And when you look at the numbers, survival rates for people diagnosed with various problems such as cancer and heart disease is right up there with the best.

Little different subject. 2 weeks ago on a Thursday I had an MRI for a herniated disk. The following Tuesday I had an appointment with a well respected neurosurgeon. Yesterday I had the surgery. Hospital facilities were wonderful, staff was excellent (and all the RN's were cute). This was a Catholic hospital. How would that work out in countries with socialized medicine?

Glad to hear your surgery went well and had cute nurses too. As to how it would be in other countries with socialized medicine, it could go very much like it did for you here. I don't know why you feel that would be impossible to be true.

There doesn't seem to be a correlation between universal healthcare and low quality of care. The quality of care, from what I have read, will vary from good to not so good across and within various healthcare systems. The determining factor for quality may have nothing to do with how health care is funded. It is fair to say most of Europe is also upset with the rising costs of healthcare.

There is a lot of 'medical tourism' as the Germans call it, going on all over Europe and we see that here too. Reading the Frankfurter Allgemeine newspaper online today (faz.net), they were complaining that the number of Germans getting elective surgery outside of Germany is having the effect of driving up surgery costs in Germany. I guess going to Thailand for a breast implant or the like is cheaper than staying home, the savings pays for most of the 'vacation'.

On heathcare metrics:
Please note I said we take a statistical hit on some metrics. Most of the factors you listed are highly related to poverty. One way to become poor and stay that way is via chronic health problems. Children raised in poorer households, no matter the cause, tend to have poor health and nutrition habits too. It is very possible the only medical person they ever see is the school nurse. They can easily develop chronic health problems of their own, as a result of their home environment. It becomes a chicken and egg problem where results and causes are intertwined.

It tempting to say these poverty factors account for skewing the stats for our country vs others, but it isn't really that simple. What is simple is: better health care for poor people will result in better statistics.

Keep mending and you must have some theraputic exercises to do?
Dave.

 

[dave1949]

But Comrade,
Didn't you realize that you were living in a socialist utopia.
And wasn't everything free! No doubt, given the chance you would love to return to the days of solidarity with your brothers in
the Class Struggle.
Good rule of thumb, ask the guy whose been there, done that. Thanks for the reality check. BTW the BEST beer I ever had was in Cesky Krumlov, Eggenberg.

You really are shameless. You are comparing Prokop's experience inside a death spiraling socialist country quasi-existing in the shadow of the USSR to exactly who or what - may I ask?

It took many years to ruin E. European countries, which used to be glorious places of learning. It will take many years to rebuild them, even countries which enjoyed relative freedom like the Czech Republic - which used to have a Slovakia attached to it. Just the stable environment that would produce a first-class healthcare system. - Yeah right.
Dave.