Grapple Hookup Questions

[chamjoe]

OK Kids, Just took delivery of my new ride (CK35HST)

I'm not new to tractors, but am a hydraulics novice. I had the dealer install a rear remote in anticipation of a grapple. I plan on getting a light gator grapple.

But some Q's first

The rear grapple is a 1/2" QC and the new grapple will have a 3/8" hose. How long does the hose need to be in order to reach the rear remote? I came up with 12' measuring but would prefer to be exact. And for the bigger question. What is the easiest way to go from 1/2" to 3/8"?

I know these are fairly dumb questions but I would prefer to order the thing correctly the first time.

 

[beenthere]

kennyd is the hydraulic guru here for good info on your questions. But 1/2 to 3/8 with a reducer should be available. A number of different options. Might check out surpluscenter.com for some commonly available fittings. They are a TBN sponsor too.

 

[teg]

use a garden hose, tape it to the bucket where the grapple hydraulic lines are, run the rest of the hose under the tractor... then raise the bucket all the way up and curl the bucket down. Add a bit extra...

 

[kennyd]

Thanks BT

For the length, the best way to measure is to tie up a garden hose or similar tubing from the front to the rear with zip/wire ties and the mark the length needed with tape or a maker being sure to leave a little slack.

The 12' number you quoted sounds a little short to go from the rear, under the tractor, up the loader mast and then down the arms.

Also, you only really need 1/4" hose to run the grapple since it uses very little flow to operate. The smaller hose is cheaper and easier to route as well.

Gator often ships flat-faced skid-steer style couplers with the grapples since they do not fully understand the CUT market. When I bought mine (from Markham at the time) I chose not to get any hoses or QD's from them so I could measure the hoses needed from the grapple to the loader accurately, and used 1/4 hose.

There are plenty of adapters available to match up any combination you will need.

Are you going to add QD's at the loader so you don't have to remove the hoses to remove the loader?

 

[IslandTractor]

use a garden hose, tape it to the bucket where the grapple hydraulic lines are, run the rest of the hose under the tractor... then raise the bucket all the way up and curl the bucket down. Add a bit extra...

Exactly. Make sure you give a nice generous curve around the bottom of the FEL post so you don't kink the hoses too. There is no real downside to having an extra foot of hydraulic line as it can easily be coiled and ziptied out of the way. I also like putting on a 90 degree adapter on the lines from the rear remote so you don't have to leave the hoses sticking out the back in order to make a gentle bend there either. Once you get the real hoses, start at the rear connectors then pass the hoses over the left rear axle, under the operator station (zip tie as best you can up to the platform) then up the left FEL post and down the FEL arm. Zip ties work well functionally but there are nicer looking hose clamps you can mount if you are handy with a welder or don't mind a little screw hole here and there.

If you are getting a Gator grapple make sure they provide Pioneer style fittings. 3/8 is ideal for the grapple but adapters are easy to get if you get 1/2 inch. You will need 1/2 inch Pioneers for the rear remote. I'd suggest you have both male and female at the grapple end so you don't get mixed up reconnecting and also so you can snap them together to keep them clean when off the tractor. You'll need two males for the rear remote connection and the easiest way I know to keep them straight is to put same color zip tie on the rear remote and the appropriate hose.

 

[chamjoe]

Thanks BT

For the length, the best way to measure is to tie up a garden hose or similar tubing from the front to the rear with zip/wire ties and the mark the length needed with tape or a maker being sure to leave a little slack.

The 12' number you quoted sounds a little short to go from the rear, under the tractor, up the loader mast and then down the arms.

Also, you only really need 1/4" hose to run the grapple since it uses very little flow to operate. The smaller hose is cheaper and easier to route as well.

Gator often ships flat-faced skid-steer style couplers with the grapples since they do not fully understand the CUT market. When I bought mine (from Markham at the time) I chose not to get any hoses or QD's from them so I could measure the hoses needed from the grapple to the loader accurately, and used 1/4 hose.

There are plenty of adapters available to match up any combination you will need.

Are you going to add QD's at the loader so you don't have to remove the hoses to remove the loader?

thanks, I had assumed it would already come with a QD from Gator on the grapple end. What do you recomend, tell them to include a hose the length I need or just tell them no hose?

 

[chamjoe]

Exactly. Make sure you give a nice generous curve around the bottom of the FEL post so you don't kink the hoses too. There is no real downside to having an extra foot of hydraulic line as it can easily be coiled and ziptied out of the way. I also like putting on a 90 degree adapter on the lines from the rear remote so you don't have to leave the hoses sticking out the back in order to make a gentle bend there either. Once you get the real hoses, start at the rear connectors then pass the hoses over the left rear axle, under the operator station (zip tie as best you can up to the platform) then up the left FEL post and down the FEL arm. Zip ties work well functionally but there are nicer looking hose clamps you can mount if you are handy with a welder or don't mind a little screw hole here and there.

If you are getting a Gator grapple make sure they provide Pioneer style fittings. 3/8 is ideal for the grapple but adapters are easy to get if you get 1/2 inch. You will need 1/2 inch Pioneers for the rear remote. I'd suggest you have both male and female at the grapple end so you don't get mixed up reconnecting and also so you can snap them together to keep them clean when off the tractor. You'll need two males for the rear remote connection and the easiest way I know to keep them straight is to put same color zip tie on the rear remote and the appropriate hose.

What is pioneer? Is that the same as the "flushface" still a bit confused on the right connectors.
Hydraulic Quick Disconnects > Discount Hydraulic Hose.com

 

[nickel plate]

You say want to do it correctly the first time-your off to a good start.
In my case I used four sets of hoses to do that on my NH TC40S.

Two hoses from the rear remotes to the FEL dock starting with a set of male QCs at the rear female remotes and ending with a set of crimped 90 degree bent tubes that attach to a set of bulkhead unions. You need to build a bracket for the bulkhead unions.

Two hoses from the FEL dock to the edge of the FEL torque tube starting with two sets of 1/2" male/female QCs threaded onto the bulkhead unions, a couple of double hose brackets along the FEL arm run and ending with a set of crimped 90 degree bent tubes onto a set of bulkhead unions. You need to build a bracket for the bulkhead unions.

Two hoses from the edge of the FEL torque tube to the center or vicinity of the torque tube starting with a set of crimped straight fittings onto the set of bulkhead unions and ending with a set of crimped swivel fittings onto a set of 90 degree fittings attachet to a set of bulkhead unions. You need to build a bracket for the bulkhead unions.

Two hoses from the center or vicinity of the FEL torque tube to the grapple cylinder starting with two sets of 1/2" male/female QCs threaded onto the bulkhead union and ending with a set of crimped fittings compatible with your grapple cylinder.

I used 1/2" Pioneer QCs adapted to 3/8" hoses as the 3/8" routs a lot easier than 1/2" hose.
Use a charged air hose if you have one as a measurement tool for your hydraulic hose lengths. When measuring the hoses from the FEL dock to the edge of the FEL torque tube, look at how your tractor's manufacturer created the "S" configuration in the hoses that power the FEL bucket. That is at least how much slack you will also need in them when you raise the FEL.

Don't make up the last set of hoses to the grapple until you have the grapple installed as there is no way beforehand to tell how much slack will be required.
I used the left side FEL arm to run the hoses as the right side was way too cluttered with factory pipes and hoses.
There are several hydraulic shops in my (ag) area and picked the one that felt comfortable-happened to be the closest to me.
I made A LOT of trips back and fourth to the hydraulic shop starting from the back of the tractor with first set of hose measurements with an extra foot or so tacked on and had only the upstream end crimped, went home, attached, detached and back to the hydraulic shop for the final cut to length and other end crimping.
I went into this project as a complete flaming no-nothing hydraulic sub-novice but just put forth ideas what I wanted to wind up with and in most cases the Hydraulic shop guys built it with their expert parts knowledge to my plan. Some will say what I did was a bit of over-build but if you look at various factory installs you will see the same sort of applications that I chose. Apologies in advance to those who have already seen the photos. Have at it at any level you wish but go into it with the notion of only having to buy it and build it once. Good luck.

 

[chamjoe]

You say want to do it correctly the first time-your off to a good start.
In my case I used four sets of hoses to do that on my NH TC40S.

Two hoses from the rear remotes to the FEL dock starting with a set of male QCs at the rear female remotes and ending with a set of crimped 90 degree bent tubes that attach to a set of bulkhead unions. You need to build a bracket for the bulkhead unions.

Two hoses from the FEL dock to the edge of the FEL torque tube starting with two sets of 1/2" male/female QCs threaded onto the bulkhead unions, a couple of double hose brackets along the FEL arm run and ending with a set of crimped 90 degree bent tubes onto a set of bulkhead unions. You need to build a bracket for the bulkhead unions.

Two hoses from the edge of the FEL torque tube to the center or vicinity of the torque tube starting with a set of crimped straight fittings onto the set of bulkhead unions and ending with a set of crimped swivel fittings onto a set of 90 degree fittings attachet to a set of bulkhead unions. You need to build a bracket for the bulkhead unions.

Two hoses from the center or vicinity of the FEL torque tube to the grapple cylinder starting with two sets of 1/2" male/female QCs threaded onto the bulkhead union and ending with a set of crimped fittings compatible with your grapple cylinder.

I used 1/2" Pioneer QCs adapted to 3/8" hoses as the 3/8" routs a lot easier than 1/2" hose.
Use a charged air hose if you have one as a measurement tool for your hydraulic hose lengths. When measuring the hoses from the FEL dock to the edge of the FEL torque tube, look at how your tractor's manufacturer created the "S" configuration in the hoses that power the FEL bucket. That is at least how much slack you will also need in them when you raise the FEL.

Don't make up the last set of hoses to the grapple until you have the grapple installed as there is no way beforehand to tell how much slack will be required.
I used the left side FEL arm to run the hoses as the right side was way too cluttered with factory pipes and hoses.
There are several hydraulic shops in my (ag) area and picked the one that felt comfortable-happened to be the closest to me.
I made A LOT of trips back and fourth to the hydraulic shop starting from the back of the tractor with first set of hose measurements with an extra foot or so tacked on and had only the upstream end crimped, went home, attached, detached and back to the hydraulic shop for the final cut to length and other end crimping.
I went into this project as a complete flaming no-nothing hydraulic sub-novice but just put forth ideas what I wanted to wind up with and in most cases the Hydraulic shop guys built it with their expert parts knowledge to my plan. Some will say what I did was a bit of over-build but if you look at various factory installs you will see the same sort of applications that I chose. Apologies in advance to those who have already seen the photos. Have at it at any level you wish but go into it with the notion of only having to buy it and build it once. Good luck.

Thank you very much for the write up! I searched the forum earlier and didn't find your pics. I think I will copy much of what you have done. I like what you did with the short hoses from the grapple to the loader mount. I much prefer to over build something and make it look good as opposed to doing a junk jon and fixing it down the road.

Is crimping hose ends something I can to myself or should I go to a shop?

I'm going to try and order the grapple tomorrow so I can get started ASAP!!!

 

[IslandTractor]

Nickel plate has a lot of good points. I disagree with one. Splitting the hoses into two lengths instead of one makes sense only if you will regularly take off the FEL. My first tractor was set up with the split hose configuration which cost almost twice as much (double connectors and double charges for end fittings) and leaves a clunky bunch of connectors to deal with on the FEL post. In three years I never took the loader off so it was a complete waste. With a single length removing the lines when dismounting the loader takes only a minute longer to clip the zip ties under the operator station and probably an extra three or four minutes to replace them. If I were to do it again I'd just use a single length.

 

[kennyd]

Like I wrote before, I would not get the hoses from them...they will not supply custom length hoses anyway. Plus you don't need 3/8", 1/4" is perfect. Get the grapple, them measure what you need and get them made locally or order from DHH. You cannot "crimp" your own, but you can make them if you want-look at this thread: Re-Usable Hydraulic Hose Fitting Tutorial - TractorByNet.com

 

[IslandTractor]

Is crimping hose ends something I can to myself or should I go to a shop?
!

You need to have a professional shop crimp the hoses or purchase premade hoses with fittings in standard sizes. Figure on paying something around 10 bucks or so per custom crimped fitting. Even a short hose costs $20 or so as the cost of the hose is minimal compared to what shops charge for fittings and crimping That is one downside of the multiple hose setups. The premade fittings are much cheaper.

 

[nickel plate]

Figure on paying something around 10 bucks or so per custom crimped fitting. Even a short hose costs $20 or so as the cost of the hose is minimal compared to what shops charge for fittings and crimping That is one downside of the multiple hose setups. The premade fittings are much cheaper.

I don't buy in to your downside of multiple hose setups or I would have built it that way in the beginning. We all have our way of desigining and I have already removed the grapple once since completed last month for assisting in a neighbor's pond digging-took about five minutes off and five minutes back on without disrupting the entire hose system.

 

[IslandTractor]

I don't buy in to your downside of multiple hose setups or I would have built it that way in the beginning. We all have our way of desigining and I have already removed the grapple once since completed last month for assisting in a neighbor's pond digging-took about five minutes off and five minutes back on without disrupting the entire hose system.

I wasn't talking about removing the grapple, we all do that regularly and of course all grapple setups have connectors at the FEL torque tube. I was talking about a split hose system where the hoses split at the FEL mounting post so the whole FEL can come off without removing the lines to the rear remote. Sorry if I misread your earlier post.

 

[nickel plate]

I wasn't talking about removing the grapple, we all do that regularly and of course all grapple setups have connectors at the FEL torque tube. I was talking about a split hose system where the hoses split at the FEL mounting post so the whole FEL can come off without removing the lines to the rear remote. Sorry if I misread your earlier post.

I got hung up on your term, "split". I think now I understand "split" to be where a hose(s) is terminated with a QC at a particular hose junction point. Sounds like you have two sets of QCs-one set at the FEL dock and one set up nearby the grapple or is it just one set up nearby the grapple? If the latter is correct and you detach the tractor from the FEL, how do you gather up all of that hose from the FEL dock to nearby the grapple?
I agree in the common theory that fewer hose connections make for the potential of fewer leaks but hose management is also an important concern. Wouldn't it be cool if someone developed a hydraulic hose reel like we have for our air hoses or as seen in lube bays but on a smaller scale?
IT, always nice trading ideas with you.

 

[rd_macgregor]

I wasn't talking about removing the grapple, we all do that regularly and of course all grapple setups have connectors at the FEL torque tube. I was talking about a split hose system where the hoses split at the FEL mounting post so the whole FEL can come off without removing the lines to the rear remote. Sorry if I misread your earlier post.

I did it the way you describe (with four lengths of hose) even though it dramatically increased the cost of plumbing. I have never removed my FEL, but I am prepared to do so by disconnecting, rather than removing, hoses. If I had it to do all over again, I'm not sure whether I'd stay with four, rather than two lengths.

I also stuck with the flat-face couplers that Gator supplies. I hope someday to buy a (relatively) low-flow SS hydraulic post hole auger, which should match the couplers just fine. Plus, they really seem to work a lot more smoothly than my Pioneer couplers.

BOB

 

[IslandTractor]

I got hung up on your term, "split". I think now I understand "split" to be where a hose(s) is terminated with a QC at a particular hose junction point. Sounds like you have two sets of QCs-one set at the FEL dock and one set up nearby the grapple or is it just one set up nearby the grapple? If the latter is correct and you detach the tractor from the FEL, how do you gather up all of that hose from the FEL dock to nearby the grapple?
I agree in the common theory that fewer hose connections make for the potential of fewer leaks but hose management is also an important concern. Wouldn't it be cool if someone developed a hydraulic hose reel like we have for our air hoses or as seen in lube bays but on a smaller scale?
IT, always nice trading ideas with you.

I think we were stumbling over terminology. My original set up was: Grapple with short 4 foot hoses and QCs that reached to the FEL torque tube where they connected and disconnected routinely with the hoses that provided hydraulic fluid/pressure from the rear remotes. Those lines from the FEL torque tube to the rear remotes were split with a second set of four QCs at the base of the FEL mounting post at the operator station. This in theory allowed me to take off the loader itself without crawling under the tractor to snip four or five zip ties that held the second section of hoses that traveled back to the rear remotes. As noted, in practice I never took off the FEL so that second set of QCs and double the number of expensive hose fittings was wasted. The set of QCs at the torque tube were obviously used each time I mounted or dismounted the grapple so those were absolutely necessary. If I was to do it again I would just run a single set of lines all the way from the rear remotes to the FEL torque tube. Removing and storing those lines if I ever did remove the FEL would only add about five or ten minutes to the job.