Heat Pump

[75H2]

AHNC,
Can you please define mini split heat pump? Also, Glad to hear new equipment in on the horizon.
I have an air to air HP. I'm in PA also & not looking forward to deregulation. We live in a 2350 sq foot house, less than 2 years old. Reasonably well insulated, but a few air leaks we still need to address. I'm East of Pittsburgh on what I found to be the coldest, most windy home site immagionable. We are an all electric house. The air to air system has an electric backup (no nat gas here) Our highest bill in the dead of winter was near 400. I actually didn't think it was too bad considering all we have running.
I looked into converting to geothermal. I incorrectly assumed it would be easy to convert our system over. I was told by 3 reps it would take a complete conversion with little reuse of existing equipment.Much $$$$$
Can you share what advances are on the horizon in regard to air to air systems?

I would leave the existing system in place and go with a Mini-split heat pump. Add, don't replace! My disclaimer here is that I am a manuf rep and I sell the Fujitsu brand. I am absolutely biased based upon my experience and the equipments performance. Other manuf in this catagory are Mitsubishi & sanyo. These are the three top brands. Given the change to the 410A refrigerant and the technological leap to inverter control (variable speed) the efficiencies are through the roof. For 900 Sq ft I would put in a 12RLS in the Fujitsu line. 26 seer, 12 HSPF. That qualifies for the 30% federal rebate up to $1,500 of installed cost and there are frequently local utility rebates as well.

The 12 RLS is probably a bit undersized and you could go up to a 15 or 18 should you choose to do so. You could also put in a dual dual or tri system. Floor plan/use will determine the proper equip selection. Not all systems meet the rebate requirements so look before you leap.

Unless it is new construction, personally, I wouldn't do a water source unit. First cost is high and retrofitting systems can be technically challenging. I cannot refute their efficiencies but there is equipment on the near horizon (1-2yrs) that will offer water source numbers without the water. On a first cost basis, put in a properly sized mini-split heat pump. Run it for both heat and cool with high efficiencies and much simpler installation and you will, in my opinion, be money ahead.

 

[AHNC]

I will refer you to Fujitsu General America Go to the consumer section and let your fingers do the walking for a little bit. There is good basic info there and I'll try to fill in the blanks. Okay? Again, as I said, I represent FGAI in the New England market so, my bias is acknowledged, but it is darned good equipment. You can also search Mitsubishi, Daikin, Sanyo. These are the four top brands and all are Japanese companies. Check DSIRE: DSIRE Home for local rebates.

If you upgrade your heat pump to another unitary (central) heat pump, make sure it is at least two stage and hopefully, like the mini-splits, inverter controlled variable speed. It just makes a tremendous difference in comfort and economy. The US manuf are doing two stage pretty commonly now. I don't know if they are really good at the variable speed compressor, condenser fan and evaporator fan set-ups. Their hi efficinecy outdoor units are HUGE. I keep joking that they should put a door on them so you can at least park the lawn mower in them. Not like my 2660, but the regular walk behind kind.

You are looking at this correctly. Study and analyze. Try to figure out how much your second stage electric is coming in for low temp supplement on your heat pump. Is yours 410A refrigerant system?

What I do in my home, a 3,000 sq ft standard 4br two story New England Colonial is to run my mini-split in the area I live in. It is just my wife and I. The kids are long gone so I run my central heat at a very low temp and run my mini-split to condition the area we are actually living in, 750 sq ft, the family room and kitchen. If I want to bring the house up to temp I have the boiler to do it, but how much space do you really occupy. This works for us.

One of the best parts of this is that with the rest of the house cold I only have to chase her around the 750 sq ft. After 35 yrs I am still amazed at how fleet of foot that girl is.

 

[bugstruck]

I will refer you to Fujitsu General America Go to the consumer section and let your fingers do the walking for a little bit. There is good basic info there and I'll try to fill in the blanks. Okay? Again, as I said, I represent FGAI in the New England market so, my bias is acknowledged, but it is darned good equipment. You can also search Mitsubishi, Daikin, Sanyo. These are the four top brands and all are Japanese companies. Check DSIRE: DSIRE Home for local rebates.

If you upgrade your heat pump to another unitary (central) heat pump, make sure it is at least two stage and hopefully, like the mini-splits, inverter controlled variable speed. It just makes a tremendous difference in comfort and economy. The US manuf are doing two stage pretty commonly now. I don't know if they are really good at the variable speed compressor, condenser fan and evaporator fan set-ups. Their hi efficinecy outdoor units are HUGE. I keep joking that they should put a door on them so you can at least park the lawn mower in them. Not like my 2660, but the regular walk behind kind.

You are looking at this correctly. Study and analyze. Try to figure out how much your second stage electric is coming in for low temp supplement on your heat pump. Is yours 410A refrigerant system?

What I do in my home, a 3,000 sq ft standard 4br two story New England Colonial is to run my mini-split in the area I live in. It is just my wife and I. The kids are long gone so I run my central heat at a very low temp and run my mini-split to condition the area we are actually living in, 750 sq ft, the family room and kitchen. If I want to bring the house up to temp I have the boiler to do it, but how much space do you really occupy. This works for us.

One of the best parts of this is that with the rest of the house cold I only have to chase her around the 750 sq ft. After 35 yrs I am still amazed at how fleet of foot that girl is.

I'd ask how they are getting such high performance numbers on air source heat pumps when our American manufacturers are struggling but I know the answer to that. Coleman made a 14 seer unit I put in well over a decade ago in a rental unit and I was astonished at how little improvement the newer air based systems offered on efficiency when I recently replaced another.

I basically have the same needs you do and similar area to heat so I find your solution interesting. Cooling isn't much of an issue (cost and efficiency wise) as two tons covers that easily on my heavily tree shielded lot which is north exposed. Heat is the inverse story. I've been trying to find a solution for my residence and refuse to abandon my oil boiler completely (cheap hot water and excellent heat) so I appreciate the input. 7 or 8 years out the Chinese will likely set the high efficiency standards on most products and I don't know that they make heat pumps at the moment. They are well educated quick studies and the other Asians we generally look to for adavanced products will get back-seated soon enough on high quality products IMO. We have our work cut out to even keep close on many technologies. Regardless, quality high performance products are rolling into the pipeline and that's good for all. I like having options, just wish more were home brewed.

 

[iplumb]

American Standard has a 20 seer heat pump out now. Made in Tyler Texas. I think I'm going with 16 seer two stage though.

 

[Chilly807]

I can give you some info on geothermal systems. We built a new house last year, 1550 sq feet normally heated, 450 sq feet of garage that we can heat if we want to. It's concrete slab on grade construction, no basement, no second floor. We installed a horizontal geothermal system consisting of three ground loops each containing 1000 feet of pipe, a 3 ton capacity Florida Heat Pump HP, and in floor radiant heat piping.

At about 11 cents/kwh, if the heat pump runs 24 hours a day it costs us about $5 per day for heat, which isn't so bad. Normally it runs 40-60 % of the time in cold weather, extreme cold (-20C) sees about 90% run time.

Efficiency is rated at 350%, which means if you put in one kW, you get the equivalent of 3.5 kW out in heat value. That varies somewhat depending on the ground temperature, but 300% is achievable in our climate.

We estimate it cost us between $700 and $800 for heat last year, we're in Nova Scotia which is moderately cold in the winter. About the same latitude as Maine or Vermont.

I'd do it again, we're pretty happy with the results. Air source heat pumps have come a long way in the past 5 years, they're a good choice as well.

Chilly

 

[AHNC]

I'd ask how they are getting such high performance numbers on air source heat pumps when our American manufacturers are struggling but I know the answer to that. Coleman made a 14 seer unit I put in well over a decade ago in a rental unit and I was astonished at how little improvement the newer air based systems offered on efficiency when I recently replaced another.

I basically have the same needs you do and similar area to heat so I find your solution interesting. Cooling isn't much of an issue (cost and efficiency wise) as two tons covers that easily on my heavily tree shielded lot which is north exposed. Heat is the inverse story. I've been trying to find a solution for my residence and refuse to abandon my oil boiler completely (cheap hot water and excellent heat) so I appreciate the input. 7 or 8 years out the Chinese will likely set the high efficiency standards on most products and I don't know that they make heat pumps at the moment. They are well educated quick studies and the other Asians we generally look to for adavanced products will get back-seated soon enough on high quality products IMO. We have our work cut out to even keep close on many technologies. Regardless, quality high performance products are rolling into the pipeline and that's good for all. I like having options, just wish more were home brewed.

The problem with oil is that it is all single stage, either on or off. You size your equipment to handle the house at the worst conditions. If you actually look at the BIN numbers (number of hrs /yr at a particular temp) you will see that you are at design condition less than 2% of the heating season. Therefore, your boiler shortcycles like crazy and is grossly oversized in real conditions. By all means keep it, you own it. Don't replace...add. I would suggest that you need a gas tankless to have economical hot water. When I shut off my boiler and turned on my tankless, my gas consumption dropped over 60%. YMMV!

When I first began with Rinnai in '91 I wished that it was made in the US, but as I look at it, I cannot fault them on the investment they made to quality and technology. They build the better mousetrap, IMHO. In my business I represent two Japanese manuf (Rinnai and Fujitsu) and they are what is keeping my business afloat, and in fact growing. US manuf focus on central heat/cool, where the rest of the world tends to "area condition" and that is the difference in approach. The difference in technology is very significant.

The other heating appliance I have is the Rinnai Energysaver. Gas fired direct vent modulating burner/blower. I've sold over 135,000 of them in New England in the past 19 years.

This site, as first a non-owner and now a rookie tractor owner, (btw, AHNC means "All hat, no cattle in the tractor world) has taught me a great deal and I am thankful to all who have been kind enough to do so. I'm a bit uncomfortable getting so specifically commercial here, but I think it necessary that we think a bit differently about how we condition our homes and businesses.