Heating the downstairs

[WVBill]

I finished off part of our basement last spring into a large recreation room. Now, with winter upon us, it's clear that even though the walls are insulated, the gas (propane) furnace for the house can't comfortably heat this "new" space in addition to the main floor.

My wife has absolutely ruled out a kerosene heater and electric would be too expensive so I'm thinking of either a free-standing ventless gas fireplace or pellet stove. I know I would have to vent the pellet stove (probably by modifying one of the small window openings).

Does anyone have experience with either of these? Are the ventless gas fireplaces truly ventless? Recommendations?

Thanks

WVBill

 

[gerard]

My brother just bought a new house (St Louis) that has a ventless fireplace and he's very happy with it, all the heat dumps into the room (but it MAY have a PVC vent, not sure on that. If it does it's a lot easier install than that of the pellet which probably needs at least a double wall metal flue) I think you'd be better off that way than with a pellett stove although I suspect the pellett stove probably puts out more BTU's. You need to find out how many BTU's you'll need given the space you want to heat and see if the gas will do it. If you have access to gas/propane I think that would be a better, cheaper to operate, and less work than pelletts. (No stocking it, lugging the pelletts, cleaning the flue periodically etc)

 

[Richard]

Hi Bill

At long last, an item where I can actually give some input that may be of some value /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif to someone.

Built log house on lake and better half wanted fireplace. Bought one at Home Depot, one of their ventless (propane) and we installed it and built the mantle ourselves. I DID however, pay a professional to do the gas line plumbing as I don’t want to blow myself up /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

The unit we have has NO exhaust or vents to the outdoors at all. 100% of available heat goes IMMEDIATELY into the room. It’s on main floor, roughly 1,100 sq ft. If fireplace is turned on high, this floor will go to 80 degrees in probably 30/45 minutes or so. Marion just likes to look at the flames, so we usually have it on more of a medium. The heat will then work its way slowly up the stairs to the bedrooms. Meanwhile, the basement does become disproportionately cold. I might install one down there when we start the finish work down there.

We LOVE it, only bad thing is changing the propane tanks. We have no big LP tank, so I bought two 100 pound tanks at HD AND bought two gas grill “small” propane tanks. These (two at a time) are coupled to a two tank manifold. If one tank gets low/empty, I just flick a switch and the backup tank is on line. I HATE to lug the large tanks up the hill and around the house, so I keep them on standby in case of really bad weather. I just swap out the small grill tanks on a more frequent basis. Now that I have Brutus, I might just carry them up the hill /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif. I drive a Miata, so taking the large tanks to refill is always an event. The little tanks, just throw them into the trunk. After all, if someone wrecks into the back of me, I figure I’m dead either way it goes (ie, if propane tank explodes or if they just crush me) /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

My advice, would be look at the larger BTU, after all, you can always turn it down. If you already have propane available (or natural gas) then power to you, if not, consider a dual manifold and two tanks. If you do the dual tank scheme, another lesson learned just last week... smelled propane inside of house, got worried. Later on went out to check on tank. (notice singular tank) I only had one tank hooked up to manifold and propane was seeping out the open connection that would otherwise hook into the second tank. I had wondered why was I only getting two or three days per tank when I usually get a week or so and now I knew. So now, I will ALWAYS have two tanks hooked up to manifold.

To get around height problem, (when having one 5 foot and one 1 foot tall tank hooked up simultaneously) I was going to have a longer lead so that both tanks could sit on ground. Marion didn’t like that, so I built a simple stand that the little tanks can both sit on, or one at a time if I’m also using a large tank. Obviously, I won’t use the stand if I have both large tanks hooked up at the same time.

Hope I’ve helped a bit, please feel free to inquire further

Regards,
Richard

PS, should have been more clear, I was getting two to three days on the SMALL tank. I will generally get around a month or so from the large ones and a week or so with the small ones as long as I'm not bleeding off into the atmosphere /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Richard on 11/24/00 12:13 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[TomG]

I think I'd do a double check on codes in your area. I'm not sure ventless heaters meet codes where I am. As far as I know, ventless heaters do need a source of fresh air to work properly, and that might be a problem depending on the type of construction in the basement. If it's a problem, you may not want to depend on remembering to leave a door or window open. Even then, putting in a vent in the floor between the basement and upper floors might be a good idea. You do want adequate air turnover. I stick with codes myself, but if approved, a ventless heater could be a good deal. Chimneys are expensive, and so are high efficiency heaters.

You might want to check forecasts for natural gas prices, since they affect propane prices. From the forecasts I've heard, propane may not be cheaper than electricity in the near future. That's because utility companies are using all the gas they can get to generate electricity.

Another think you might want to check is whether the BTU's of your furnace is inadequate for the space and construction you're trying to heat, or is the basement just cold. If you've got a tight basement and no cold air return to the furnace in the basement, then it's not going to get much heat.

 

[Wingnut]

VWBill,
I will be in the same situation next year when I put an addition on this place and I thought long and hard on the matter. I finally decided that the best thiong in my situation ... even though I just had a new furnace installed when I bought this place 2-1/2 years ago ... is to put in a bigger furnace ... and to go for a real high efficiency one this time. My reasoning is that ...except for wood power ... I'm still stuck with incredibly expensive propane (this really hurts after being used to nat. gas out in the boonies in Alberta) and having 2 heaters could not be more efficient than one ... and buying another good heater would not be much less expensive than upgrading to a bigger main unit.
Your mileage may vary ...


too bad that common sense ain't

 

[Mike H]

I installed a ventless, freestanding fireplace last year and we love it.

Here are some numbers for my situation. I'm in SW MI. A 1800 sq. ft, 1870 vintage, poorly insulated 2 story house. I had an old oil furnace and last year finally decided to replace it. I switched over to propane (no LNG where I am) and with the spike in heating oil prices last winter, literally paid for the furnace in one season (I did all the labor so I only had to recoup material). I put in a 100KBtu/hr, 80% eff. unit. I'm fortunate enough to live in an area where I joined a consortium of LPG users and locked in a reasonable fuel rate ($0.62/gal last year, $0.74/gal this year). We have over 200 500 gal. tanks in the consortium so there's more bargaining power than a single homeowner.

At the same time, I installed a 40KBtu/hr ventless fireplace in our 'living room'. We now routinely use this to remove the 'chill' from the house in the morning or early evening. Until we get continually below about 32F outside, the fireplace adequately keeps the house warm enough for us.

The fireplace instructions clearly state that it should not be installed in a confined space (w/o other ventilation provisions) and defers to the National Fuel Gas Code definition of a confined space: one whose volume is less than 50 cubic feet per 1000 Btu/hr. In my case, I have several room on my first floor that do not have separating doors so I have plenty of volume. The tighter the house and smaller the area, the more careful you need to be with this.

 

[scruffy]

WVBill, take a look at http://www.eren.doe.gov/consumerinfo/refbriefs/eb1.html it will provide some decent information for your situation. If you also do a search on 'Ventless Propane Heater', you will find many differant types/brands to compare. Hope it helps.

 

[Billc]

WVBill,

I worked at Home Depot for a bit. One of the things I sold was vented and ventless fire places.

One important thing you need to know about ventless fire places, you can put them in the basement BUT the unit needs EITHER a partially open flue vent or a window opened a little in the room.

One other thought, if you are going with propane MAKE SURE TO GET AN LP DETECTOR!!!! They are not very expensive and plug into a wall outlet. If you do have a propane leak you won't smell it the way you can a natural gas leak. Liquid propane is heavy. If you have a leak the LP gas will stay close to the ground. It will fill a room from the bottom to the top. By the time the LP leak gets to nose level it's way too late. Bad blow-up things have happened by then.

Hope this helps.

Bill Cook

 

[rsislo]

Re: Heating the downstairs (pellet stove)

Wvbill,

I have a little indirect experience with pellet stoves and believe it would be worth your time to look into one for your downstairs. To see if one would be practical for your needs. It must be vented with a special pipe (I forget the correct type) that you can buy at HD, Lowes and other home and hardware supply stores. The stove will use this pipe to vent exhaust gases and bring in oxygen to burn the pellets from outside your house. The exhaust gases and the oxygen are moved with a small quite blower in the stove. Plus most of the pellet stoves have a blower that blows heated air inside the house. A thermostat controls the temperature. Most of the thermostats are mounted on the stove. But the better units have a remote mounted on a wall just like a furnace.

My youngest brother has one in a old uninsulated farm house and used it to heat the whole house until he and I installed him a central heating and air conditioning system 2 years a go. He has a top of the line unit ($$) that had a wall mounted remote thermostat and is also self-ignighting. He only had 2 problems with it in the 3 years he used it. Be sure and get good quality hardwood pellets and do not let the cats sleep on top of it as the fur they shed blocked the intake for the inside blower during year number 3. Plus he bought his pellets a ton at a time to get a discount on the price.

A pellet stove is not a good choice for every one. My brother was using a wood stove before he got the pellet stove and told me he really missed the trail of wood bark, ants and termites every year from the outside door to the wood stove.

Roger

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I see that the ventless propane fireplaces and heaters have been covered well and seem to contain accurate information. You may also want to look into a kerosine lasor heater by kerosun or monitor. These are not typical kerosine heaters, and do not emit any kerosine odor. They would be closer to a furnace since they have thermastats and turn themsleves on and off. They also offer a propane model. These stoves vent the fumes outside and take the combustion air from outside. The kerosine can also be put in a tank outside.
I was talked into buying one of these for a 1200 sq foot cabin I have in the mountains at over 4300 foot elevation. For my money it was the best choice. I have never used 300 galons of kerosine in a heating season yet and the temperature is not pulled below 60 degrees even when I am not there. It keeps the whole house warm and is rated for as much as a 2000 sq foot area. It may be a hard sell to your wife, but I think you will like them and find them the most economical