HP vs Weight

[777777]

Hi all,

Didn't want to hijack the thread about Jinma 284's but there was a real interesting point brought up so started this thread about it.
Had never given it any thought about weight vs HP but it certainly has come to mind now. Had picked up a little Jinma 204 which is a really nice little tractor but didn't feel it had enough power. So, went out just to compare and tried Bota's and Deeres in similare HP ranges and they seemed to have more juice to them. Couldn't figure it out but just figured that I had bought a tractor that was not powered enough for my needs. Well, not really, because it met most of my needs but just didn't " feel " like it had enough power.

Now I understand the difference and wish I had thought about it before hand. I am not complaining just now noticing.

So, I guess what I am asking is that if I want a Chinese tractor comparable in power to the 22\23 hp Deere or Bota, what should I look at ?
The 25 hp, 28 HP or even the 30\35 HP range ?

Because the Chinese weigh probably twice as much, what HP should really be looked at to get a more realistic comparison ?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Tom

 

[greg_g]

I'm sure you can find weights and horsepowers of most tractors made if you look hard enough. So I'll just give you my own numbers.

I had a 24hp Yanmar (2wd) that weighed in at 1664 pounds, not including ballasted rears. That computes to 69 pounds per horsepower (more considering ballast), moved by four gears through two ranges. It did everything I wanted it to do - three seasons of the year. It just didn't have the traction I needed for winter work.

So I figured a 25hp Jinma with 4wd was just the ticket. Little did I realize that it weighed nearly a thousand pounds more, or ~105 pounds per horsepower. The horsepower to weight disadvantage was amplified by a 3 speed/dual range tranny. To be fair, the Jinma had a creeper range, but I never used it - too slow.

My 45hp KAMA weighs in at about 4334 pounds. So at 96 pounds per horsepower, it ranks between the YM240 and the JM254. I believe the fact that it's got a 4 speed dual range tranny with shuttle shift is why it works so much better for me than either the Yanmar or the Jinma.

I'm told the Japanese don't have economical access to the huge amounts of steel that the Chinese do. I can't speak for the Korean or Indian competition though. Anyway, the Japanese use of alloyed steel explains a big chunk of the weight differential. I'm sure it's a factor in the price differential as well.

//greg//

 

[gunslinger101]

Tom:
Depends what you want to do with it and only you know that. All I can tell you is my uncle had a JD 1070 39hp run like a rabbit and stunk in a field, no weight, with wheel weights and tires filled it still would break 3000 lb.
I tried out a New Holland 33 hp for 1 day, worthless to me, no weight and the tires just spin.
Jinma 354 is about 3900 lb and has plenty of power and will work well with a FEL and backhoe.

 

[jswisc]

I've had my 204 for 2 yrs. and 250+ hrs. Very happy so far. No synchros, no shuttle, and low hp/high weight is my govenor. For loader work I have to take my time. All other ground engaging work, blades, boxes, even snow plowing are all enhanced by the weight and it doesn't suffer due to the gearing. Sure, I would like a faster reverse option, but give me more hp and I think I would be pushing this unit to its max. Clutch would suffer as well. I only have 6 acres and the times I need to travel any distance is very rare and in those instances I'll just have to use little slopes to get up to speed in 3rd gear.

 

[777777]

Hi All,

Thanks for the input and patience. I am a newbie that is trying to learn and there always appears to be more to learn than I thought.
In Canada, Ontario, so snow is, of course and issue.
Basically, I guess I what I was trying to get across was that the 204 is a nice capable little tractor. However, when I test drove a Deere 2305 and small Kubotas, they seemed to go a heck of a lot faster so this is where I started to wonder about the Jinma. Granted, there was no question that the Jinma felt alot heavier and I guess that should have been my answer.

Long way around asking this question but basically, around here you have folks with 1-20 acres, most don't till but just simply kind of take care of their property with nice partial lawns but the rest trees, bush, etc so alot of rough cutting, dirt moving, driveway cleaning of snow and just basically guys messing around on their tractors.
I know this is a little vague but mostly true.
So, do the 25 HP Chinese tractors meet those kind of needs or should the ordinary kind of person look at the 35 hp models so meet almost every need possible but not overdo it too much in size while still having a fair amount of power.

Still sounds vague but maybe you can get what I am getting at.

Thanks

Tom

 

[TobaccoRoad]

Hey Tom,

You have a good concern. I had my name in the hat for a KAMA TS354C and then changed to a 554 before I took delivery. I don't know what the 354 would have done, but I've been digging and moving dirt with the 554 with ease. It has the weight and power to move it....

 

[RonMar]

They may be faster but that is not necessarilly a good thing.

Most work a tractor does is best done at a slow pace or you will find yourself breaking things(force=mass X acceleration). There can also be a lot going on(steer, monitor FEL height, monitor brushhog height or other rear impliment, check gauges, how far is the terrain tilting the tractor, ect...) and trying to do something too fast, especially on terrain that isn't flat, is a recipe for BIG trouble.

The top speed on my 284 in 3HH is aroung 15MPH. I have had it that fast a few times on the road in front of my property but that was only while I was breaking it in. You will find just about any tractor uncomfortable to drive on unimproved terrain at anything much faster than a brisk walk. If you are carrying anything in a bucket or a heavy impliment out back on the 3point hitch, any bounce amplifies the stresses placed on those structures.

If I was routinely doing loader work IE: moving piles into trailers or trucks, a hydrostatic trans or shuttle shift would speed me up, but only a little over the standard non-syncro gearbox my tractor has. With the ammount of slow push/pull work I am doing now, I wouldn't trade my creeper gear for anything. What you are planning to do has a big say in what equipment you need.

One big advantage of being heavy is the ammount of traction it allows. The 254/284 series has around 1500 pounds of traction force at the drawbar and that is mainly due to it's weight. At that, I am still able to spin the tires when I push up against something that won't move, so I have plenty of horsepower in that regard. Most any real work on a tractor is done at a crawl and requires traction and you won't get that without weight.

When doing ground engagement work, sometimes a lack of traction is substuted for with excessive speed, ramming the bucket or rear impliment into the pile or high spot you are trying to dig/move. This usually leads to something breaking prematurely. With my 284, I can approach at a sensible speed and if I get wheel spin, I have reached my limit. The bucket is usually full by then, if not, perhaps I have hit something nasty that I couldn't see, such as a big rock or stump head. The important thing is that after finding such an obstruction, I am figuring out a way to remove or work around it and not getting the tractor back to the barn to repair it.

I hang a heavy duty 5' brushhog behind my 284 and crawl through the brush with the FEL down low. It pushes the brush down, we drive over it and the Hog shreds it. I drive over everything of a size the mower can handle, up to 2"-3" in diameter and usually much taller than the tractor(and usually too thick to see/walk thru. The only thing that stops it is the terrain or stumps and rocks that the FEL hangs up on. Because of it's weight, it is a good stable platform for running impliments on and if it wasn't as heavy as it is, I would need a lighter/smaller mower.

I have 7.5 acres that is moderatly hilly. In my case the 284 was a little bit overkill but since 3/4 of this property is heavily overgrown with many stumps and I plan on clearing it to the condition you described, I chose that tractor with the standard gearbox and it's creeper range. So far it has been excellent at removing stumps, busting brush, making burn piles and moveing the high spots into the low spots. I plan on having this tractor for many years to come and didn't want to wear it out by using it beyond it's capacity while getting the land whipped into shape. Once the heavy stuff is cleared, it will have a pretty average life mowing around the trees and someday it will dig a hole for a new foundation out of the side of the hill. It was also an exceptional deal at $6900 new, assembled and ready to roll with FEL.

Good Luck in whatever decision you make.

 

[777777]

Hi,

Love the matching loader. Looks so finished. Great shot. Good looking tractor.

Yes, I agree that most things are done at a reasonable or should I say moderate speed, for both personal safety and to prevent equipment breakage. Only makes sense.

It is interesting comparing HP to weight and seeing the differences as long as you factor in the gears, etc.

Discussion has been a lot of help.

Guess my question could be looked at in a more simplistic way but saying when I look at a Deere 2210 @ 23HP and then look at my Jinma @ 20 Hp, there is just so much more Jinma there right in front of your face. But because there is so much there in size\weight, does it or will it do the same and as fast as the Deere 2210 or should one look at a 25 or 35 Hp tractor to get the same type of performance. Or can I do basically all the same things but at a bit slower pace. Or would a 28 or 30HP Chinese tractor be a better comparison.

Only using the Deere as an example but all the subcuts look so small..... just a bit bigger than my lawn tractor.

Thanks again or all your help.

Tom

 

[n4807g]

Never owned a tractor less than 8,000 lbs. I can tell you this, I've pushed a pile of snow ahead of the Belarus 572 I own that was probably the sized of a VW bug. Without all that weight it wouldn't have happened. You can always go down a gear if needed, but it's hard to gain 1,000 lbs. when you wish you had it.