Insulating the Ceiling of a Wet Cellar

[Tony_S]

Howdy,
This is a bit of a stretch to be asking of y'all, but I haven't had much luck getting info, so here it goes.
I have an old (100 yr.?)sawmill shanty farmhouse with a hand dug, dirt floored, rock walled root cellar(basement) under the kitchen area. Unless we're nearly in a drought, it is wet down there. During rainy times, there is actually a stream running through it!
About 20 years ago, treated joists were sistered onto the rotting existing joists and things seem to be pretty stable down there aside from the moisture.
The joists I speak of are the floor joists of the kitchen, and there is no insulation whatsoever between the cellar and the kitchen. I would like to add some, but am afraid of what the moisture will do to whatever insulation I put down there and certainly don't want to trap moisture or cause even more damage than is being done by the wetness already.

Does anyone have an opinion on what the best approach might be for insulating the ceiling of the cellar?? Or a link to a good old house website?

I figure if anyone would know, it would be this group!
Thanks !

Tony S.
*edit: Attached photo is just a distant shot of the exterior.

 

[BTDT]

Nice looking house. Is this at the base of a hill/mountain, flat land, what kind of soil? Could you dig a hole in the floor, case it, and let water collect there and them pump out with a sump pump to cut down on the moisture? Maybe some type of spray on foam insulation could be used on your basement ceiling.

 

[Tom_H]

Just some ideas:

A. Put French drain around the outer perimeter. (After looking at the beautiful photo, that'd be one deep trench!)

B. Dig a sump hole and put a sump pump in it.

C. If you insulate with fiberglass, put vapor barriers above and below the insulation, alternatively, use the spray on isocyanuritic (sp?) foam that makes its own vapor seal.

D. Put an a.c. powered de-humidifier down there.

E. E-mail your situation to ASK THIS OLD HOUSE and get your 10 min. of fame by having Tom Silva come solve your problem for you on national TV!

 

[psuedofarmer]

you've been given some good advice, i may be able to help through my own experience. i live in circa 1740 farm house; the basement is exactly as you describe yours. you can insulate the cieling, but you're masking a problem you should really try to fix (e.g., mold, extra rot, etc.)

here's what i did to dry it out:

- install french drains along the foundation
- install a sump pump
- install rain gutters (i recently did this after 6 yrs because i found it was the easiest way to divert water coming off the roof)

old houses (mine included) were build on top of springs, so in the spring time i typically get more water (handled by the sump pump). i recently visited a neighbor who installed a poured concrete floor and created a channel around the sides to divert water into the sump.

good luck (and boy, and i ever glad that project is behind me!)

pf

 

[goaliedad]

I think Tom has some great ideas- especially Ask This Old House! Tom Silva is my hero!!!! I'm not sure about the vapor barrier on both sides of the insulation- I was under the impression that you put the barrier on the warm side. I would make sure to insulate it during a dry time- so you trap the least amount of moisture as possible.
The sump sounds like a good idea- unless it would run non-stop during the wet season. If it's good spring water maybe you could bottle it and market it-
TONY'S SPRING WATER. lol

 

[RPK]

Just a thought,

Try to eliminate the moisture and ventilate the area as best as possible as mentioned by the others.
A vapor barrier is used to keep warm moist air from condensing into water when it hits a cold surface. The vapor barrier should only be used on the warm side and as close to the heated area as possible.
I would not use fiberglass insulation. If it gets wet it is useless. Consider 6 mil poly stapled to the underside of the floor and fasten at least 2 inches of exterior grade styrofoam to the bottom of the joists. Use "Tyvek Tape" or an equivalent to seal the seams of the sheets. This should work.

RPK

 

[Tony_S]

Thanks everyone for the great replies! I knew I could count on you. All of the replies were spot on.
The water situation around the foundation needs serious attention, or seriously needs attention, I should say.
No clay in this river bottom! The ground is river rock with a little sandy loam mixed in whereas if you try to dig a trench deeper than 2 feet it will fill with water and or collapse within 15 mins...exaggerated somewhat, but you get the idea. Combine this with a lack of guttering and you know why I have water in the basement! Yes, I agree this problem needs to be addressed, and once the roof gets painted, and the fascia and soffit are replaced, then I'll work on guttering. There's so much work to be done here that I don't know where to start, so usually I just don't.
For this winter though, I am merely hoping to keep a bit more heat in the kitchen.

I never once thought about the spray on foam insulation. That sounds like just what the doctor ordered! I had thought about styrofoam boards, and batts of course, but was fearful of moisture penetrating behind those.

Great idea about "Ask this Old House"...I'm still due my 15 minutes of fame.
I'll look into it. Perhaps I could use it as a launching campaign for my new line of Tony's Designer Spring Waters. How about the ever popular "Cellar Cured" or maybe "Never Seen the Light of Day".
We really do have some good spring water here...'cept for the time when that stupid possum found his way into the spring but couldn't find his way out.... ....yeah....we won't mention THAT to the health department.

OK, I'm gonna go find out more about that fancy worded isocyan..whatever foam stuff that Tom H mentioned.

Thanks !

Tony

P.S. Photo shows front of house....definately a work in progress...except that I'm not making much progress!!

 

[BTDT]

I see a brick flue in that picture. What about a wood stove in the basement to help with heat in house and drying in basement. Could be vented out that smokestack (or is that a fireplace). Wouldn't do much for you during summer, but that's still a while off.

I don't know if any of you guys have get-togethers of TBN members up there, but maybe some near you might be willing to come help.

 

[Tony_S]

RPK, I will definately give the styrofoam consideration as a choice. That might be the simplest way to go. Still will look into the ease and cost of spray on foam though.

BTDT, now that is a good suggestion, except that the flue doesn't go all the way to the basement. Believe it or not, the chimney stops just below the first floor and is resting on WOOD cribbing!! Looks to be 4x4 blocks about 24" long crossed atop each other. I've been in quite a few crawl spaces in my life but have never seen anything like this. It's probably been like that for 100 years, so I guess it is good to go. By the way, it comes down on the opposite side of a bearing wall from the cellar, in the crawlspace area under the living room. So, there would be no practical way to plumb a woostove in down there, and the entrance to the cellar is a horizontal trap door on the porch that makes access a pain. Great idea though!

Oh, the smoke stack you see on the right in that picture is an unused metal stovepipe from long ago that has never been completely removed. It stops inside the attic. Years ago that pipe went to a pot bellied stove that stood in the middle of the living room floor. At the time, the living room encompassed the entire downstairs area except for the kitchen. It was more of a hunting/ social gathering cabin at the time, but since then a partition was added making 2 rooms and leaving no place for the pot bellied stove or the pipe. I sure do miss that stove.
Rambling on....

Tony

 

[MikeD74T]

Extending the chimney down to the basement floor is easier than you might think. I've done several under houses that were moved and built fireplaces where under a multi-story chimney that was in very good shape. Put a steel beam under the chimney supported with posts/jacks & build up under the existing chimney. Can't comment on the bearing wall without seeing it. You could also install a pellet or corn stove with a direct vent. Heat will difinitely help your basement. I'd go with heat & a cement floor rather than the insulation. MikeD74T