JD 330 battery overcharging mysteriously

[noenvy]

Hi everyone,
I'm new here. I hope that you will forgive my lack of knowledge of mechanics. I do try hard to understand and I have been trying to fix this problem without success. I hope that someone here can help.
I have a JD 330 diesel. I'm going to yadda yadda a lot of this story. I can fill in information if you need it.
I was mowing the grass and the battery light comes on, thought I would finish up one little spot but I started to smell plastic burning and the smoke followed shortly thereafter. I gunned it back to the barn and got the hose on it. The wire that goes from the voltage regulator to the solenoid had melted into the harness and partially melted the voltage regulator.
I have replaced the voltage regulator got the whole thing wired back together after several attempts (with the help of my auto mechanic who is just too busy to be messing around with my tractor). I took the battery too the auto parts store and had them check it and they said it was good.
The battery is overcharging. You can hear it bubbling after just a minute or two of the tractor running. When my mechanic was here the battery tested at 20V when it was running. The alternator was reading 67V. I just bought a mulitmeter and I checked the battery last night while it was off and it read 14.53V.
After hours of reading in this forum and in others I came across a post in another forum that was talking about a service bulletin that JD had put out as a fix for starting problems and battery boiling problems. It's called a starting improvement relay kit- part #AM 107421. Turns out that is installed on my tractor but it's called a neutral start relay. Now this has me wondering if the thing is wired correctly. My husband had put in a new harness or plug that attaches to the voltage regulator some time ago. He doesn't remember when or why he had to replace it. I actually suspect that the battery has been boiling for some time now just from the corrosion on parts around the battery which I have since cleaned up.
I have to get this fixed. The grass is way long. I can't afford to send it to the dealer. I have no way of getting it there. I asked today at the dealership if they would pick it up and they said it would add $200 to the bill.
If anyone has read this far and thinks they can help me figure this out I would be eternally grateful. If anyone knows how it should be wired and can tell me how the wires should go I think it would be a great start to figuring this out. I'm pretty sure that the wires from the voltage regulator are correct. I'm not sure about the wire from the relay switch. I have tried to read the wiring diagrams but they leave my stumped.
Thanks for reading......I hope someone can help

 

[Coyote machine]

ALL voltage readings you cited are way too high. 14.4V is acceptable when the alternator is supplying voltage back to a battery, IF there is a load present, meaning a draw off the voltage of the battery by something like the headlights on high beam, as one example. 20 volts is enough to make the boiling of the batteries fluids, ACID and water, explode in your face and do serious damage to you instantly. 67 volts from the alternator shows an unregulated alternator with no voltage output regulation - meaning your voltage regulator is not working/fried/disconnected, etc.
Unless you feel like risking serious injury, at a minimum, I would say get the tractor to your dealer and have them fix it. Otherwise you could get badly burned if/when the battery decides to explode without any warning, and be hit by battery case fragments AND caustic acid, which can blind you and/or disfigure your skin/face etc.
Think long and hard about trying to fix this issue, and weigh the risks against money well spent to protect yourself from the very high risk of being seriously hurt. Battery overvoltage is one of the worst situations to deal with on any charging system.
If you insist on doing it yourself after weighing the risks post back and we'll help you get it done as safely as possible, but not without still being at potential risk of things going wrong.

 

[weedpharma]

I agree with the previous comments.

I will however give a brief description of how alternators work. This may assist in working out what has happened.

An alternator is a device to generate power by spinning a magnet in a coil. The magnet strength is controlled by the regulator changing the current through the rotating coil. The more current flowing through the rotating coil, the higher the voltage from the alternator. The bigger the load current, the lower the output voltage. This means the regulator then feed more current into the rotating coil to raise the voltage.

As the load current varies, so does the regulator current vary to keep the voltage at the set voltage. An alternating that is not charging, will have a low voltage when a load is applied. If the regulator is pushing excessive current into the magnetic coil, the output voltage will be high.

The cause of these fault condition requires electronics knowledge to find. If you do not have this knowledge you must have a technician fix the problem.

Weedpharma

 

[Topher265]

Or...you could just replace the alternator. You should also replace the battery. Though you said the voltage regulator was replaced, it doesn't seem to be doing it's job. If it's not reading the reference V to make adjustments from, then it won't regulate the alternator back down. The fact there is V across the battery that is higher than the V when the tractor is off, means the wiring should be okay. Otherwise, you'd have lower V or the same V if there was a wiring problem. The wiring for charging systems is very simple.

As said above, 20V while running is way too high. The 14V with the tractor off isn't that high, if it was measured soon after the tractor was turned off. The battery can hold a slightly higher surface charge for a short while. My advice is to fix the regulator/alternator before replacing the battery or you'll kill the new one too. Verify that fix, then replace the battery. Also, check your battery hold-down. It's strange that you would have the initial wire melting issue so make sure to find what caused that and fix it so it doesn't happen again.

 

[Coyote machine]

The OP, a woman who is trying her best to deal with the problem, said she is stumped by the wiring diagrams, so advising her to fix wiring issues of unknown origin and to deal with a alternator and V-reg that are allowing excessive voltage to be sent to the battery to the point of boiling electrolyte, is IMHO, a fools errand, and could in a worse case scenario get her seriously injured. This tractor needs to be tended to by a professional mechanic, period.

 

[noenvy]

Hi Guys,
Thank you for your responses. I appreciate your help. I know I'm crazy for trying to fix this myself but we are not in a good place financially right now and I don't see any other way to get this fixed. I tried calling a couple of different people that say that they're mechanics only to have them not show up.

I do understand the dangers of an exploding battery Coyote, thank you for your information and your concern. It is a good thing for others reading this to have that information. I only turn the machine on for a minute or two to check something or move the tractor as I am aware of the dangers. As for the voltage of the alternator that was unregulated voltage, Pat (auto mechanic) had it unplugged when he checked it.

As far as the alternator, I tried to have that checked out as well. When I took it to the auto parts store and placed it on the counter they asked me what it was.....I knew right then they couldn't help me with that. They told me of a place in Rutland VT that did electrical work, they couldn't remember the name of the place. I guess I could try to find them and see if they could check it.

Topher, when I checked the voltage on the battery the other night the machine was stone cold. I had not started it in days.
I think your last sentence sums it all up. If I can't find out why the wire melted in the first place, I will be wasting time and money by replacing the battery, alternator and the regulator.

I have downloaded the repair manual. It is a bit dated as far as testing equipment goes. I bought a mulitimeter the other day. It seems like a really cool tool to have, I'm just learning how to use it.

If you guys are willing to help me a little further with this I am will to take the risk. If there is something that I should be checking and I haven't yet, let me know and I will do my best to try to do it safely.

In the meantime I will try to find that post from the other forum with the guy talking about the starting fix that I mentioned in my original post and try to post it here. He said some things that made sense about the battery overcharging. Found it!!!

* I own a 322 and 332 GT with Yanmar engines and the same alternator as the 455's. These models had a problem with the batteries being overcharged. I isolated the problem to be that there was a voltage drop on the sensing lead (Green Wire) to the VR. I added a relay to connect the VR sensing lead directly to the battery and the problem was eliminated. Later I discovered that this was also John Deeres's solution.*

Found another on same topic.

*The over charging problem is caused by a voltage drop from the battery to the green voltage sensing lead connected to the voltage regulator. This sensing voltage passes through a fuse link, ignition switch, fuse and various connectors which cause the voltage drop.

The regulator sees a lower voltage than the actual battery voltage. It increases the output voltage to bring up the voltage on the sensing lead which causes the battery to overcharge. It makes no difference if the regulator is separate or built-in.

You should first test the actual battery voltage. Then, turn the ignition switch on and check the voltage at the green lead of the voltage regulator. If the voltage on the green lead is less than the battery voltage, the relay kit will correct the problem.

All the relay does is to provide a direct connection from the battery to the sensing lead. My guess is that the leads on the relay kit were not compatible with the 430. I just bought a SPDT 12V relay and wired it myself for my 332.*

I hope it's alright that I did that. I'm just trying to piece this together to get the problem solved. These posts were the reason that I was questioning if the wiring was done correctly. I did test the voltage on the green wire and it read 11V.

Let me know what you think. Again, I really appreciate your help.

 

[Topher265]

The OP, a woman who is trying her best to deal with the problem, said she is stumped by the wiring diagrams, so advising her to fix wiring issues of unknown origin and to deal with a alternator and V-reg that are allowing excessive voltage to be sent to the battery to the point of boiling electrolyte, is IMHO, a fools errand, and could in a worse case scenario get her seriously injured. This tractor needs to be tended to by a professional mechanic, period.

Wow. Oh where to start...

Okay, I think I understand what you're getting at. It seems like you are concerned that someone is "in over their head". Okay, but I take issue with what seems to be a scare tactic. Instead, why don't we give her ideas and tell her what all will need to be done? Simply doing this can more effectively show how badly a good technician is needed, instead of the overly dramatized "you may die" effect you're going for.

In case anyone doesn't realize it, the "worse case scenario" any time you do anything is to get seriously injured. You can do this just walking down stairs in the morning.

For the record, I didn't advise her to fix the wiring issues (yet ). She said she had that done already. She said "...can't afford to get the tractor to the dealer. I have no way of getting it there." I didn't see her post that she was stumped by wiring diagrams. In fact, I didn't see her mention wiring diagrams at all. And neither did you. But that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't suggest she get the wiring diagrams and compare it to what she has. If she has no way of getting the tractor to the dealer, you repeatedly telling her to have a mechanic fix it isn't working either...because it's doubtful the mechanic will make a house call for free.

Trying to scare her by detailing all the horrible things that could possibly one day happen to someone out there working on a starting/charging system is a bit obtuse. And saying the battery may blow up for no reason and without warning is an incorrect gross generalization. Batteries don't randomly blow up with no warning. If one goes, there are always indications that some people ignore. Yes, she should be careful working with the charging system, just as any person should be careful working on anything on a tractor. They are machines and they can cause damage in a lot of different ways. Simply working in a well ventilated area and not allowing the battery to boil pretty much solves your imagined super dangerous scenario. She hasn't indicated she's done anything ignorant to cause her to be directly in harms way (from what she has posted). She's asking for help. If you're not going to help, maybe just go.

I've been in her shoes before. I'm sure most of us here have. She has done what she can, and now she's asking for help. I'm just trying to help.

So, to the OP: first, the wiring melting sounds like somewhere in the wiring a short occurred and the wire overheated (think like the heating element in a toaster) which then melted wires together. The problem is this could have affected a lot of wires. You then mention a starting improvement relay kit, which you then called a neutral start relay. These two relay circuits should not be the same. The starting improvement kit bypasses wiring harness voltage losses so that the "start" voltage from the ignition switch goes directly to the starter solenoid. Your neutral start relay is a safety relay to make sure the engine can only start under certain conditions (as in, it allows to start in neutral, not while in a gear...unless the clutch is pushed in...etc).

The OP has at least a couple of options:

1. Rent a u-haul trailer and put your mower on it to get it to the dealer. That saves you their $200 fee, less the cost to rent the trailer for the drop-off day and for the pickup day. You should save around $100-140 total.
2. Buy a technical manual, then strap on your thinking cap and inspect and mark with tape tags any wires that were damaged/replaced. Verify each is correctly wired by making sure they are going to the correct components. There will be much more to this step.

I would advise to go with option 1 above. Fixing it yourself will take a number of days as you sort out what is good and what is not. This is not a fast process because you are a beginner. It's not impossible though, and you're going to need to invest in tools and resources before proceeding.

 

[MoKelly]

I know nothing about tractor electrical systems except the basics. I can be no help in your task.

However, my Mother (who was the smartest person I ever knew) told me when I was small that "if you know how to read, you can do anything". It didn't register for me until many years later. I now tell that same line to my children.

It is true.

If you want to fix your own stuff more power to you. Keep reading and learning and you can make it happen.

Good luck.

MoKelly

 

[Coyote machine]

Wow. Oh where to start...

Okay, I think I understand what you're getting at. It seems like you are concerned that someone is "in over their head". Okay, but I take issue with what seems to be a scare tactic. Instead, why don't we give her ideas and tell her what all will need to be done? Simply doing this can more effectively show how badly a good technician is needed, instead of the overly dramatized "you may die" effect you're going for.

In case anyone doesn't realize it, the "worse case scenario" any time you do anything is to get seriously injured. You can do this just walking down stairs in the morning.

For the record, I didn't advise her to fix the wiring issues (yet ). She said she had that done already. She said "...can't afford to get the tractor to the dealer. I have no way of getting it there." I didn't see her post that she was stumped by wiring diagrams. In fact, I didn't see her mention wiring diagrams at all. And neither did you. But that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't suggest she get the wiring diagrams and compare it to what she has. If she has no way of getting the tractor to the dealer, you repeatedly telling her to have a mechanic fix it isn't working either...because it's doubtful the mechanic will make a house call for free.

Trying to scare her by detailing all the horrible things that could possibly one day happen to someone out there working on a starting/charging system is a bit obtuse. And saying the battery may blow up for no reason and without warning is an incorrect gross generalization. Batteries don't randomly blow up with no warning. If one goes, there are always indications that some people ignore. Yes, she should be careful working with the charging system, just as any person should be careful working on anything on a tractor. They are machines and they can cause damage in a lot of different ways. Simply working in a well ventilated area and not allowing the battery to boil pretty much solves your imagined super dangerous scenario. She hasn't indicated she's done anything ignorant to cause her to be directly in harms way (from what she has posted). She's asking for help. If you're not going to help, maybe just go.

I've been in her shoes before. I'm sure most of us here have. She has done what she can, and now she's asking for help. I'm just trying to help.

So, to the OP: first, the wiring melting sounds like somewhere in the wiring a short occurred and the wire overheated (think like the heating element in a toaster) which then melted wires together. The problem is this could have affected a lot of wires. You then mention a starting improvement relay kit, which you then called a neutral start relay. These two relay circuits should not be the same. The starting improvement kit bypasses wiring harness voltage losses so that the "start" voltage from the ignition switch goes directly to the starter solenoid. Your neutral start relay is a safety relay to make sure the engine can only start under certain conditions (as in, it allows to start in neutral, not while in a gear...unless the clutch is pushed in...etc).

The OP has at least a couple of options:

1. Rent a u-haul trailer and put your mower on it to get it to the dealer. That saves you their $200 fee, less the cost to rent the trailer for the drop-off day and for the pickup day. You should save around $100-140 total.
2. Buy a technical manual, then strap on your thinking cap and inspect and mark with tape tags any wires that were damaged/replaced. Verify each is correctly wired by making sure they are going to the correct components. There will be much more to this step.

I would advise to go with option 1 above. Fixing it yourself will take a number of days as you sort out what is good and what is not. This is not a fast process because you are a beginner. It's not impossible though, and you're going to need to invest in tools and resources before proceeding.

"I have tried to read the wiring diagrams but they leave my stumped. " First post of this thread, so before you tell me what I've seen or not try actually reading what the OP wrote.
And I asked her to access if this is something she wanted to pursue fixing being aware of the down side potential for injury, and then let us know if she wanted to have us help her further. And no it's neither a gross generalization, or any of the other ridiculous accusations you are aiming at me. What's obtuse is your inability to recognize the actual risk factors regarding potential for any battery to explode under certain conditions, all of which are present with her tractor's current electrical system malfunction. So unless you can cite, and even if you can cite where you get your misguided 'knowledge' about batteries, you should leave this thread, because you're putting the OP into a false sense of security which is irresponsible at the very least. I never told her she was going to die or anything of the sort; however I did repeatedly warn her that she or anyone else, man or woman, could be seriously injured by a battery that has been boiling out fluids for an unknown amount of time, as a result of an overcharging electrical system. All it takes is the right set of conditions and it will go boom. I've actually seen it happen when I owned my foreign auto shop, when the guy who was supposed to be delivering a load of wood pulled up to my shop bay doors in his truck with the engine running, to ask me about his charging system. While he was explaining what he had done WRONG to fix his truck the battery exploded under the hood, and let me tell you it was loud as he*l, and acid and case pieces were everywhere.
And don't even think of trying to tell me to go somewhere; what's your expertise based on anyway? Not that it matters, because I'm not here to argue with you; and I am helping her by giving her sound advise, asking her to take into account the risks and then decide to proceed or not. Have you even considered what the result would be if the battery did explode in her face?! And don't ever try to tell me it won't or can't or it's just as risky as walking down stairs in the morning. I seriously doubt it.
Advice on the net goes from sublime to ridiculous. I'd rather have one be overly cautious than uninformed of the risks. And you may have been in her situation, but again I doubt it from what you've written so far, and most of us haven't been facing an unknown potentially explosive battery, which all it takes at this point could be as simple as turning the tractor on and running it- just like the real life case of the truck I exemplified above.

To the OP, How close are you to Rutland? I ask because I am in the general vicinity and may be able to recommend a place to go if that is where you want to get your tractor to; if you want to U-haul it somewhere or something along those lines. Meantime the threads you referred to make perfect sense to me about the 'exciter' wire from the voltage regulator loosing voltage and thus giving the wrong reference voltage back to the v-regulator. This results in fooling the voltage regulator into thinking it needs to make the alternator deliver more voltage than the battery needs, (essentially any amount above 14.5+ volts) hence your delivery of 20volts or thereabout - WAY too high, and likely the same reason the wiring harness is smoldering.

If you choose to work on this issue wear goggles that completely protect your eyes, rubber gloves and throw away quality long sleeve shirt; no jewelry on your hand, wrists or arms, and keep water and baking soda within reach to neutralize acid if and gets on your skin. I would start by placing baking soda all over the existing battery, EXCEPT the battery posts, and then rinsing it off with a hose CAREFULLY until there is no bubbling of baking soda. Don't start the tractor. Once rinsed, remove the battery by disconnecting the negative post clamp first ,and then the positive post clamp, and make sure to not allow your wrench to touch any metal other than the positive post clamp nut or you will short out the wrench, causing sparks, possibly, leading to an optimum condition for potential explosion due to presence of combustible gas from the overcharged battery. The battery is likely toast, but you could have it load tested to be certain, and test specific gravity of each cell to see if it meets or fails that test. Any competent auto shop with a load tester and hygrometer can perform the tests, BUT they need to first properly charge your battery BEFORE performing the load test. Warn them that your battery has been overcharged for an unknown period of time before they do any testing, so they know what they're dealing with.
Once the battery is out of the tractor contain it in a heavy cardboard box or similar so any remaining acid doesn't do damage to your vehicle when transporting it. Don't smoke, obviously, around it, and keep at least one window open to ventilate your car.
The alternator/V-regulator and associated wiring are somewhat more difficult to diagnose and fix, plus the obvious issue regarding the solution to the overcharging condition of your specific model tractor, which are all related to one another. Plus you have the switch/relay/plug? your husband already added at some prior time which we don't know a lot about what it was supposed to do/solve at that time...
Maybe yo can post some pics of the area where the wires are burned?

 

[Topher265]

"I have tried to read the wiring diagrams but they leave my stumped. " First post of this thread, so before you tell me what I've seen or not try actually reading what the OP wrote.
And I asked her to access if this is something she wanted to pursue fixing being aware of the down side potential for injury, and then let us know if she wanted to have us help her further. And no it's neither a gross generalization, or any of the other ridiculous accusations you are aiming at me. What's obtuse is your inability to recognize the actual risk factors regarding potential for any battery to explode under certain conditions, all of which are present with her tractor's current electrical system malfunction. So unless you can cite, and even if you can cite where you get your misguided 'knowledge' about batteries, you should leave this thread, because you're putting the OP into a false sense of security which is irresponsible at the very least. I never told her she was going to die or anything of the sort; however I did repeatedly warn her that she or anyone else, man or woman, could be seriously injured by a battery that has been boiling out fluids for an unknown amount of time, as a result of an overcharging electrical system. All it takes is the right set of conditions and it will go boom. I've actually seen it happen when I owned my foreign auto shop, when the guy who was supposed to be delivering a load of wood pulled up to my shop bay doors in his truck with the engine running, to ask me about his charging system. While he was explaining what he had done WRONG to fix his truck the battery exploded under the hood, and let me tell you it was loud as he*l, and acid and case pieces were everywhere.
And don't even think of trying to tell me to go somewhere; what's your expertise based on anyway? Not that it matters, because I'm not here to argue with you; and I am helping her by giving her sound advise, asking her to take into account the risks and then decide to proceed or not. Have you even considered what the result would be if the battery did explode in her face?! And don't ever try to tell me it won't or can't or it's just as risky as walking down stairs in the morning. I seriously doubt it.
Advice on the net goes from sublime to ridiculous. I'd rather have one be overly cautious than uninformed of the risks. And you may have been in her situation, but again I doubt it from what you've written so far, and most of us haven't been facing an unknown potentially explosive battery, which all it takes at this point could be as simple as turning the tractor on and running it- just like the real life case of the truck I exemplified above.

To the OP, How close are you to Rutland? I ask because I am in the general vicinity and may be able to recommend a place to go if that is where you want to get your tractor to; if you want to U-haul it somewhere or something along those lines. Meantime the threads you referred to make perfect sense to me about the 'exciter' wire from the voltage regulator loosing voltage and thus giving the wrong reference voltage back to the v-regulator. This results in fooling the voltage regulator into thinking it needs to make the alternator deliver more voltage than the battery needs, (essentially any amount above 14.5+ volts) hence your delivery of 20volts or thereabout - WAY too high, and likely the same reason the wiring harness is smoldering.

If you choose to work on this issue wear goggles that completely protect your eyes, rubber gloves and throw away quality long sleeve shirt; no jewelry on your hand, wrists or arms, and keep water and baking soda within reach to neutralize acid if and gets on your skin. I would start by placing baking soda all over the existing battery, EXCEPT the battery posts, and then rinsing it off with a hose CAREFULLY until there is no bubbling of baking soda. Don't start the tractor. Once rinsed, remove the battery by disconnecting the negative post clamp first ,and then the positive post clamp, and make sure to not allow your wrench to touch any metal other than the positive post clamp nut or you will short out the wrench, causing sparks, possibly, leading to an optimum condition for potential explosion due to presence of combustible gas from the overcharged battery. The battery is likely toast, but you could have it load tested to be certain, and test specific gravity of each cell to see if it meets or fails that test. Any competent auto shop with a load tester and hygrometer can perform the tests, BUT they need to first properly charge your battery BEFORE performing the load test. Warn them that your battery has been overcharged for an unknown period of time before they do any testing, so they know what they're dealing with.
Once the battery is out of the tractor contain it in a heavy cardboard box or similar so any remaining acid doesn't do damage to your vehicle when transporting it. Don't smoke, obviously, around it, and keep at least one window open to ventilate your car.
The alternator/V-regulator and associated wiring are somewhat more difficult to diagnose and fix, plus the obvious issue regarding the solution to the overcharging condition of your specific model tractor, which are all related to one another. Plus you have the switch/relay/plug? your husband already added at some prior time which we don't know a lot about what it was supposed to do/solve at that time...
Maybe yo can post some pics of the area where the wires are burned?

First, my bad. I didn't see her say that at the end, and I'm not kidding I read her post 4 or 5 times.

I will also apologise for the "And neither do you." I meant no offense, I think it was part of a sentence left over from an edit. I'd never dream of telling someone what they see.

As far as my expertise? Well, I was in the US Army as a Light Wheel Vehicle Mechanic, then I got an Associates in Automotive Engineering from a State College. I then worked on cars/trucks/buses as I put myself through college to get a Bachelors Degree in Automotive and Heavy Equipment Management. I am a re-certified ASE Master Technician, and for the past few years I was teaching college at the same place I received my Associates. This was after I spent a number of years working my way up in an automobile dealership. I was also a Series 7 licensed Stock Broker, if that matters to you.

I'm not going to get your feathers ruffled anymore. I'm in no contest with you. I will simply bow out and agree to disagree with you on multiple points. I've said what I wanted to say to the OP, and I think she can handle the repair by researching, taking time and getting the right equipment.

Have a great day!!!

Oh, and "I'm from Hickory, where the **** are you from?" :dance1: