John Deere 650 with bushhog qt1846 FEL very noisy

[BCinMI650]

I have a Bushhog qt1846 front end loader on a John Deere 650. I have very little experience with FEL tractors but I can not help but feel like something is not quite right with my setup. Everything functions, but it is very noisy when operating/cycling any of the functions (in comparison to my father in laws larger Massey). Filter screen has been pulled and cleaned, which I believe is the only filter in it, and fresh, correct, John Deere hydraulic fluid has been put in. The tractor bogs down a little even just retracting the bucket and there is also a very noticeable whine from the tractor as well. The sound is present whether there is a load in the bucket or not. The other thing I find odd is that sometimes the little tractor will lift its rear wheels right off the ground when trying to lift too large of a load (such as digging into a pile or catching it on a stubborn tree root) without hesitation and sometimes it releases the bypass and just screams immediately, and I can not find a rhyme or reason to when it does one or the other.

I know the little John Deere is not known to have the strongest hydraulics, but I can not believe that just cycling the bucket would strain it that much.

Is this normal? Does anyone have any simple trouble shooting steps to find the root cause of either behavior or noise?

Thank you in advance!

 

[K5lwq]

Do you notice the symptoms change as the oil heats up?

A couple of things that come to mind is a relief valve bypassing, air gets into the system or a worn gear pump.

 

[BCinMI650]

I have not noticed much of a change over time when running, though I have not been paying that close of attention, next time I am running it I will. Is there anything I can do to check any of those things?

 

[K5lwq]

A pressure gauge will give some direction. To check the flow, you could time how long it takes to pump out a gallon of fluid. Take a 5 gallon bucket and mark it at one gallon level. Disconnect a hose and time how long it takes to pump a gallon into the bucket.

If air is getting into the system, the movement of the loader will be jerky and feel spongy.

It is tough to help with these type issues without being there but hope that helps.

 

[Dave M7040]

A few questions.

How does the 3 pt hitch work with a load on it?

How many hoses are connected to the FEL valve. 6 or 7?

Do you have any literature for the loader?

My reaction is a hydraulic hose(s) in the wrong place

Loader info you provided is misleading as everyone calls it a 1846QT including Messicks who say the loader valve is obsolete.

Dave M7040

 

[BCinMI650]

DaveM704, there was no intention to 杜islead about anything. The SCV was factory installed already when I bought the tractor (though I now have a spare that came with the loader when that was pulled out of a junkyard). It controlled a 4 way plow at that time. The loader was added after the fact and the functionality seems okay, with a rare hiccup, but it is just noisy and sluggish (or atleast in my opinion it is). I have the install instructions for the loader valve and the manual for the loader itself. There are 6 hoses attached. 4 quick couplers and 2 permanent. The 3pt works okay, it jumps slightly but that is with or without the loader so there is clearly something off in the system. But I am unsure if it is something plumbed backwards.

K5lwq, can you describe what Spongy may feel like? The only jerkiness is the rare quick motion downwards (when I am already moving the loader arms down) and it really is rare, so it may be unintended operator issues (me not paying attention enough when dropping the arms to drive off after dumping a bucketful of material).

 

[Dave M7040]

DaveM704, there was no intention to �islead about anything. The SCV was factory installed already when I bought the tractor (though I now have a spare that came with the loader when that was pulled out of a junkyard). It controlled a 4 way plow at that time. The loader was added after the fact and the functionality seems okay, with a rare hiccup, but it is just noisy and sluggish (or atleast in my opinion it is). I have the install instructions for the loader valve and the manual for the loader itself. There are 6 hoses attached. 4 quick couplers and 2 permanent. The 3pt works okay, it jumps slightly but that is with or without the loader so there is clearly something off in the system. But I am unsure if it is something plumbed backwards.

K5lwq, can you describe what Spongy may feel like? The only jerkiness is the rare quick motion downwards (when I am already moving the loader arms down) and it really is rare, so it may be unintended operator issues (me not paying attention enough when dropping the arms to drive off after dumping a bucketful of material).

My point, to be clear, was to let you know how the industry at large identifies your loader so should you in the years ahead need to look for parts, using the model number it is known by will greatly improve your success.

The usual way to provide hydraulic power to the rear of a tractor ( 3 pt & scv) when there is a loader installed (or provision made for one,) is by using a power beyond circuit in the loader valve.

A loader valve with a power beyond circuit will have 7 hoses. 4 for the loader arms and bucket, a P-pump line, a T-tank line and a Power Beyond line which feeds the other circuits mentioned.

If the loader valve stays on the tractor when the physical loader is removed, then in my mind it suggests a focus on : The 3pt works okay, it jumps slightly but that is with or without the loader so there is clearly something off in the system

How does the loader valve receive hydraulic flow? Where does the loader valve T port go to return fluid to the reservoir?

There are two other possibilities: your loader has its own pump, the loader is connected to the rear scv.

Dave M7040

 

[K5lwq]

Spongy to me is when you get a load of dirt and you curl up it takes a moment before moving. Or when the loader is on the ground and you curl down it takes a little time to start lifting the wheels. Hydraulic oil does not compress much at all so movement should be pretty instantaneous. Because air will compress, it will create a lag.

Dave brings up some good points. I wonder if the loader somehow is the last valve in the series and therefore just has a return to tank line?

The fact that sometimes it seems stronger than others leads me to think the difference could be temperature or RPM. Or possibly a different implement on the back. I would like to at least know what kind of pressure the system is producing.

 

[BCinMI650]

Dave, The only remaining factory bits are the bucket itself and the arms/brackets. 1 cylinder was junk, too much damage to rebuild, so i rebuilt the other 3, then took the 2 bucket cylinders off and replaced them with shelf matches in bore and stroke from Magister, then had the ends modified to fit the original pin points. so I've got 1 replacement for the arm cylinders and new stuff on the bucket cylinder. its got all new off the shelf hydraulic lines too. for the prices Messicks and German bliss were charging for 1 cylinder, I could replace all 4 from Magister or some other outfit. It even took them 3 or 4 times to send me the correct rebuild kits because apparently Bush hog changed cylinder sizes on this particular loader several times so we had to go by measurement instead of part number. To your point, lots of things have been discontinued or are no longer supported, so I knew I had to modernize, the industry can't help me anymore. thank goodness for a good welder and machinist.

K5LWQ, by your definition I would definitely say there is some sponginess then. I had just assumed it took a second to put pressure into the circuits after initiating a movement. Can air get trapped? I would have thought it would eventually work itself out. the jerkiness in the 3pt occurs regardless of implement, but is near non existent when the tractor is first started, but once its up to operating temp, it jerks/hops. I'm told the 3pt should be as smooth as silk, mine is not, though it is much better than when i first bought it. I used to really only have all the way up (which held an implement about 6 inches off the ground) or all the way down. I have since fine tuned the feedback to allow for proper lift and drop.

Would some pictures help? I know I am butchering terminology, and my lack of hydraulics experience is probably infuriating.

 

[K5lwq]

Yes air should work it's way out but if air is getting in, it might be an endless cycle. I would look closely at suction tubes and hoses for leaks or possibly a bad O-ring.