Just about ready to pull the trigger on the new 425...

[jsduke]

I have a serious concern about the proprietary (Italian made?) main hydraulic pump and some posts casting doubt on the life and reliability of it and fairly involved process in swapping it out. The cost of a new one, 2K+, and the fact that PT has rebuilt ones ready to ship at a moments notice makes me a tad uncomfortable.

Any input or experience anyone?

 

[coolconnection]

Yep, on pump #4 (counting the original that was in it) on mine. First one went out under warranty under 50 hours. I was plowing snow and it just quit. I could push it even without any motor running. The swash plate went out. Sent it back to power-trac and got another one a few days later. Pump #2, I was mowing and no forward motion but had reverse and it was locked it. Going all over the yard trying to figure out how to stop. Slowed it all the way down and then turned it off. This pump the screw mounting locations came loose inside the pump. Sent it back and got another a few days later at $400. Pump #3 put it in and nothing, called Terry and tried everything. It was DOA - cause the pump wouldn't prime. So no now I am on pump #4 and so far pretty good. I have only 350 on it and that is including leaving the key in the on position and just racking up hours on the hour meter. I have had it 10 years now and I still love it. I have made 3 attachments for it of my own creation. I am pretty good now at changing out the pumps. The hardest part it puts a creak in you back if your older. I can have it out in about 45 minutes and new one in about 1-1/2 hours. Thats with stretching and coffee breaks. I look at other tractors and see how expensive they are and their attachments also limited in type and selection. Power-Trac if you can think it up you should be able to make it a reality. So much great help here on this forum - bunch a great guys. We lost a member recently and what a great loss :frown:. He helped so many people with their tractors including myself.

 

[jfh28]

it's not that its really difficult to remove and reinstall its just that some of those hoses are in really awkward locations which makes it hard to get a wrench on them......just make sure you label all the hoses and take lots of pictures as you disassemble........Jack

 

[cqaigy2]

I had the tram pump go out in about 50 hours too. I learned that you should keep the hose(s) above the level of the oil reservoir. :duh: About a year ago, lost a hose to the front right wheel motor. I'm not a mechanic, but things are pretty straight forward, so far i've been able to work on and fix, anything that's needed attention.

 

[jsduke]

Thanks for the input fellow TBNers.

 

[jsduke]

Can anyone tell me which components/parts of the 425 (or other PTs) are strictly proprietary and have to be sourced through Tazewell?

Does anyone have any information regarding the financial status of PT or the likely hood of their being around and available for parts and technical assistance years from now?

Just a few last concerns to address before taking the plunge

 

[airbiscuit]

Not sure if this is accurate, but it gives you some info about the company.
Canaan Land Associates, Inc in Tazewell, VA - (276) 988-6543
[h=1]Canaan Land Associates, Inc[/h]
[h=2]Power-Trac[/h]





Contact Information

Canaan Land Associates, Inc
Tazewell Industrial Park
Tazewell, VA 24651

Contact:	Ed Reynolds
Title:	President
Phone:	(276) 988-6543
Website:	www.power-trac.com

Canaan Land Associates, Inc is the only company located at Tazewell Industrial Park, Tazewell, VA 24651




Business Description

Canaan Land Associates, which also operates under the name Power-Trac, is located in Tazewell, Virginia. This organization primarily operates in the Lawn and Garden Tractors and Equipment business / industry within the Industrial and Commercial Machinery and Computer Equipment sector. This organization has been operating for approximately 32 years. Canaan Land Associates is estimated to generate $7.0 million in annual revenues, and employs approximately 55 people at this single location. This organization is engaged in manufacturing activities at this facility.

Sector:	Industrial and Commercial Machinery and Computer Equipment
Category:	Lawn and Garden Equipment
Industry:	Lawn and Garden Tractors and Equipment Mining Machinery
SIC Code:	3524, 3532

Name:
Canaan Land Associates, Inc


Trade Name:
Power-Trac
Cla


Year Founded: 1986

Engaged In:

Manufacturing

Importing

Exporting



State of Inc:
Virginia

Location Type:
Single

Revenue:

$ 6,956,783


Employees Here:

55


Facility Size:
N/A

* Revenue & Employees are estimates

 

[BobRip]

I visited there three years ago and saw their new show room. Terry, I believe it was, commented that the showroom was paid for as built. I hope this helps. I have had my 422 for 18 years and have been extraordinarily pleased with it. No major failures at this point. I had the one hose break after I dropped something on it. I had one wheel motor leak and sent it back for rebuild. Put new ignition coils and carburetor in the engine. The engine is now using a lot of oil, about 1/2 quart in two hours. This is fouling the spark plugs. I have about 1100 hours on the engine and exceeded the rated slope for some of my use. I plan to get a new 425 in the near future, maybe this year. I know of nothing else on the market that will do what this will do anywhere near this price range. People are amazed when they see this thing move dirt. You need to be handy to own one because there is no local support. Just my experience. Good luck with your decision.

 

[woodlandfarms]

I believe that PT still has legs and they sell more than it appears. They survived the coal downturn which was a major portion of their business. Not sure if they just export to China and such but that division was really hurt in the US. Terry says they are doing well. Business is steady. So none of the parts outside of the lift cylinders are proprietary. They buy everything off the shelf and I believe they try and balance quality vs cost, meanin there are better parts out there but those cost way too much. PT removes all markings from pumps and motors, leaving you to either find someone smart to do the repair (not impossible if you live in the right town) or order from them. I live in a town with smart people so when my wheel motor failed, I took it down, they provided me the model number in just a couple of minutes and then charged me 1100 to fix the darn thing.

 

[woodlandfarms]

So based on the quote you got airbisquit they have available 127K a year for each employee. Figure the averag on the HIGH side is 65 per employee that is 3.5mil of the 7 mil for labor. I am sure the materials cost of a PT is about 50% of the overall cost (my PT, 6K engine, 8K wheel motors, 6K pumps, 5K on parts and steel so the remainder of the sale is labor andprofit or 10K. I bet the PT goes together quick. 5 days from weld to release if one person was doing it?

 

[airbiscuit]

So based on the quote you got airbisquit they have available 127K a year for each employee. Figure the averag on the HIGH side is 65 per employee that is 3.5mil of the 7 mil for labor. I am sure the materials cost of a PT is about 50% of the overall cost (my PT, 6K engine, 8K wheel motors, 6K pumps, 5K on parts and steel so the remainder of the sale is labor andprofit or 10K. I bet the PT goes together quick. 5 days from weld to release if one person was doing it?

If we go your math, and all they build is Powertracs, then they build 300-350 per year.

 

[Impulse]

I was there about a year ago. They told me they sell 800-850 or so PT-425 units / year (of I remember correctly). I'll also throw on that I love mine and have never once had a drop of buyer's remorse.

 

[scotts562]

My 425 has 2575 hours of hard use on it. Not sure how the hours are so low since this was the only machine for my landscaping company from 2005 to 2015.

My pump is currently in the hydraulic shop being repaired. Mine is Bondioli pump and by the time they get it repaired I will be able to tell you the model number and rebuild cost at my local shop. The only information I could get on it from Power Trac is the brand. It sounds like they have used a couple of different pumps in these machines over the years, so they genuinely may not know the pump model. Power Trac has given me zero resistance about having this pump re-built locally. If I were closer to their factory, I would have had them rebuild it (quoted at $ 1,500).

Once I get everything put back together, I will have a magnet on the filter and possible one in the tank. The shop says my pump is scored pretty bad from debris running through it. I found dried up, non-metallic sealant chunks (from the hydraulic tank cover) and very fine, dust-like metal in the hydraulic tank. The magnets will catch the fine metal debris.

I purchase as many parts locally as possible. I know the wheel motors are not proprietary. My local supplier called White hydraulics to ensure this before they would sell me a wheel motor. I highly doubt many/any of the hydraulic components are proprietary because there is too much variation from one year's machine to the next.

The recurring problems I have with my machine are the Robin engine (replaced 3 times) and leaky wheel motor (mostly the front right wheel). The Robin engine is getting replaced with a Kohler. Still trying to figure out the wheel motors. In my experience, re-building the wheel motors is a waste of time. New is better but they cost $450 - $600 each depending on vendor.

As I said above, I am currently re-building my machine. It looks like I will have about $ 5,000 into parts and outside shop repairs. Much of the work I will do myself. I am not a mechanic by any means, but feel pretty comfortable with taking the. For this amount of money I will have a brand new engine, re-built hydraulic pump, re-built hydraulic cylinders (all 6 of them), re-built lift/tilt manifold, one new wheel motor, new throttle and choke cables, and a few other small items. The same $ 5,000 will not get me very far on my Bobcat or most of the other big brand name machines.

In short, despite the repairs and frustrations I have had on my machine, I would not hesitate to buy another Power Trac.

 

[marrt]

I agree...$5000 on real commercial machinery repair/rebuild is nothing. This is the main reason I haven't bought a Bobcat excavator. Fantastic machine but too expensive for my non-commercial use. Better to just rent.

The PT wheel motors are a known commodity. Search the forum for details. The displacement and style varies slightly depending on the year of your unit (e.g., 12.5 cu. in. vs 14 cu. in. if memory serves). If you really can't find anything, post back and we can help.

As to your pump wear, that sounds abnormal to me for a PT with that many hours...in that you got MANY more hours than I'd expect. PT considers these pumps a wear item. I think I read somewhere that a pump should last about 4000 hours on average in optimum conditions. That's not what we should expect. I've had pumps repairs at <700 hours and <500 hours on different machines. My neighbor had his pump repaired at about 1000 hours but it was weak for a long time prior. The PT filtration setup is far from optimal. Ideally, it would have multiple filters in the hydraulic circuit...like Kubota uses in many of their machines. For example, the whole pump/wheel motor circuit is closed and NEVER filtered. In theory, the oil is gradually replaced by the charge pump over time but this varies by machine type (e.g., 425 has no dedicated wheel motor case drain; 1845 does).

In any case, I've stopped worrying about it. Everything's a compromise. If the filtration was better on the suction side, cavitation potential would be even higher on cold start ups. The overall machine design is awesome. So, I now consider the cost of a pump rebuild as "normal" so it doesn't hurt so much. Kinda like my wife's hairdresser bill.

Regarding the engine, the Robin is terrible in my opinion. The old Kohler's were great and I still have some on other equipment. They start good and seem more tolerant of high operating temps. Personally, this is the one area where I think the benefits of synthetic oil is justified....air cooled engines.

Good luck with the rebuild and try to take some pictures. I know it's difficult to take pictures when working on machinery ("I just want to get it done"). But we all like pictures. I'm about to get started again with the rebuild of my 425. I just ordered a brand new BP pump all the way from Italy as a spare ($1900). I have a rebuilt pump I'll throw in for now. I'm using a Subaru (i.e., Generac) 35 HP engine. I'm also using higher capacity wheel motors for more torque. I can't stay on the PT at full speed on my property anyway so I'll trade speed for torque (I might not if using the machine commercially where time is money). Personally, I like to see the wheels spin when pushing into a pile of dirt with the bucket.

 

[scotts562]

You are making me feel better about a pump repair at 2600 hours. The hydraulic shop thought that number of hours at the lower end of expected performance.

Where did you get your new BP pump and what model is it? For $1900 I may have been better of buying new. Power Trac quoted me ~ $2600 for a new pump.

I have another tread about 425 engine alternatives, check it out. Power Trac now offers a conversion kit to replace the Robin with a Kohler CH 730. There are pictures of the kit. Subaru has discontinued production of the Robin 25 hp, don't know about your 35 hp.