Kitchen wiring sanity check.

[ejb]

Hi guys. An electrical wiring question for those of you that have done this.

I am remodeling my kitchen (actually relocating it to another room), so all new wiring will need to be put in.

Here is what I think I will need, and my plan to wire it.

A) Fridegerator - dedicated 20AMP circuit
B) Dishwasher - dedicated 20AMP circuit
C) 5 over-the-counter GFCI plugs for small appliances 20AMP
D) gascooktop and hood/vent - 20AMP circuit (cooktop has electronic ignition so it needs a circuit).
E) overhead lights - approx 6 "cans", 1 over the island light and under-the cabinet lighting - 20AMP circuit.
F) 2 Seperate 30AMP for each of two electric wall ovens.

My questions are:

1) given what I listed above, anyone see anything missing?
2) For convenience, I am thinking about putting in a sub-panel in the cellar under the new kitchen and then wire just the sub-panel back to the old panel. How big a panel would I need to accomodate the listed circuits? Alternatively, I was thinking of using the sub-panel for everything except the ovens, and then just have 3 runs back to the main a) the sub-panel and 2 seperate 30AMP/220 circuits. In this case, would a 50AMP sub be big enough?

3) Are the panels/breakers/wires etc sold at Home Depot as good as anything else you could buy at a electric supply house?

Please note: I am fairly good at routine wiring, done a lot in the past - this is just a bit more ambitious than some projects I've done. I'll either end up hiring a pro or pulling a permit and doing it myself, but in either case I'd like to know I am on the right track before I talk to either the electricians for bids or the electric inspector with a plan (I figure if I make to many obvious mistakes in my conversations with the inspector he may become suspicious of my know-how /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

Lastly, for those of you non-licensed do-it-yourselfers...what has been your experience doing electric on your own and then having an inspector come by? Are they helpful/understanding of the do-it-yourselfers or do they have an attitude that only the pros should do this work? (PS: I am In Mass.)

 

[dubba]

I am not an electrician, nor do I play one on TV, But /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I do not like bigger fused circuits than what the major appliances call for, If you want to use overkill on the wire itself, go for it.

5 over the counter outlets only require 1 GFI to work properly & should not be over a 15 amp circuit. If you are planning on using the toaster, microwave & the blender at the same time, make more 15 amp circuits. My biggest problem with 20 amp circuits is that the full 20 amps is available to any given outlet in the circuit. When was the last time you saw a plug in kitchen appliance with a 20 amp plug?

You list 6 cans, island light, & under counter lights. I would need them all on separate circuits with separate switches ( with dimmers)

 

[stevenf]

ejb,
I've certainly done my share of DIYS lately in the electrical department and unlike the city dweller Steve the country boy Steve has been doing a lot of 220V wiring lately all of it has been remodeling so I feel your pain. I can't imagine that Home Depot or Lowes wouldn't be perfectly fine for electrical stuff but don't ignore the specialty places, we've got a small hardware store in Kerrville 30 miles away instead of 8 but they are at least 20% cheaper then either of the big box stores and lots more helpful with questions.
If your wife is anything like mine I wouldn't think a 50 amp sub would be sufficient, besides your workshop the kitchen has to be the single largest and most used electrical center in your house and if your putting in double ovens somebody cooks. You'd best start looking into how many appliances she could run at one time plus all the other stuff and amp up accordingly. Not sure how far your sub is from your main but I'd think if you go up a size or two in your sub supply line it would be cheaper then running three runs of main return lines. Hopefully you'll get some electricians to reply but err on the side of to heavy of wires and service then to small you won't regret it.
Steve

 

[CurlyDave]

I would be inclined to put the appliance outlets on more than one circuit, and have more of them.

18 years ago I put 9 convenience outlets in our kitchen on three circuits. Many of them have now had the six-outlet adaptors added to them.

The other thing I would put in is a light inside the under-sink cabinets. I did one with a pull chain mounted just under the sink just inside the cabinet doors. My wife loves it, and every time I have to crawl under there to hook up a new dishwasher or clear a disposal jam I like it.

Speaking of disposals, I didn't see a circuit for that. Even if you don't use one, put the circuit in now and you will have better resale value in the future.

Wiring is cheap and easy during construction, expensive and difficult afterwards.

 

[_RaT_]

Code requires at least 2- 20 amp convenience circuits in the kitchen. GFI protected if they are within 6 feet of the sink. I like having the refrigerator on its own circuit, dishwasher/disposer on its own circuit and the microwave on its own circuit. Obviously the oven(s) will need a 240V dedicted breaker. The stove and hood do not need their own circuit, the current draw is minimal. The lights can easily go on a 15 amp circuit. I like using 15 amp circuits for most lighting because #14 wire is so much easier to work with and many fixtures have fairly small j boxes especially when you daisychain them. A 50 amp subpanel for the kitchen should be OK since you are excluding the ovens. You will have with that sub panel in effect, 2- 50 amp 120V circuits. Split the wiring accordingly to even out the draw on each buss.

 

[NSBound]

You didn't mention a microwave, but when I moved into my current house, I added a microwave over the stove, in place of the range hood that was there before. I had to have a circuit added with a plug-in in the cupboard above the stove, for the over-the-range microwave to plug into. I also like having lights under the kitchen cabinets - low-voltage things.

 

[Inspector507]

_RaT_
You are correct. 2-20Amp circuits are required for the countertop outlets. The GFI part is different now and has been for a few years. All counter top receptacles are required to be GFCI protected.
Keep in mind that the above info is for my area, your mileage may differ. We use the 2005 NEC®. Some areas have no codes or use another version. Then all bets are off on that info.

 

[_RaT_]

You know, I like GFI's. I am very intimidated by electricity and have been doing it since 1978 when I wired my first house and then got into commercial work. I always use GFI's in the kitchen, bathrooms, garage, outdoors and any other place that an occupant may be more likely to ground out some electrons.

 

[ejb]

Good advice so far...thanks. 2-20Amp circuits makes sense for the plugs.

I won't wire for a disposal as we have a septic and no chance of ever getting sewer system here...septics and garbage disposals don't play well together.

15A for the lights make sense...I like everything at 20AMP, but 14G wire sure is easier to snake in the cielings.

As far as the homeowner pulling a permit themselves and working with the inspector...anyone have any experience in that regard?

 

[midlf]

Homeowner permit and inspectors is very much a local and individual personality thing. Some inspectors are a PITA. It seems as they think homeowner work requires extra and detailed inspection and they don't want to do the work. Others can be thought of as a PITA but aren't if the homeowner work is of good quality, and hardnosed if it is sloppy work. I think they are trying to encourage Mr. Sloppy work to never attempt it again. For some it depends on how the homeowner acts toward them.