Kubota or Kioti???

Chuxster · May 21, 2005

Did any of you look at a Kioti?? I am considering a BX 23 or a B7510 then I saw Kioti, did you go have the same problem trying to decide or was the choice obvious? Which Kioti is close in comparison to the BX 23 or B7510? My nearest Kioti dealer is 75 miles away and I respect any imput you can give, since gas is expensive and time is valuable. Of course the Kioti dealer says there is no comparison to the Kubota but thats why he sells Kioti and not Kubota.

Bob_Skurka · May 21, 2005

There is no close comparison. Kioti does not make a Sub-CUT class tractor which is what the BX is. Kioti does not make a light small frame CUT tractor, which is what B7510 is. Now conversely, Kubota does not make a heavy small frame tractor, which is what the CK20 is. So if you are looking at the SUB-CUTs then you need to skip Kioti completely. If you are looking for a small frame tractor, then Kioti and Kubota both make them. For a heavy duty small frame tractor for tasks where traction is important (log pulling, box blading, etc), it is very hard to beat the CK20, it is a nicely equiped machine with a very strong following here on TBN. If you are looking for a tractor that will excel in mowing and doing light work without damaging your lawn, then the B7510 is the king of the small lightweight machines.

Both tractors will do the same tasks, one is better suited for some and the other is better suited for others, but either one is a fine choice. Some folks report the CK20 to be less expensive, many others report the B7510 to less expensive. The CK20 has some heavy duty features that are nice like a stronger alternator and higher capacities on the loader and the 3pt; some report some dissatisfaction with the Mid-Mount Mower. The B7510 has the legendary Kubota power plant, lightweight ladder frame design and an excellent Mid-Mount Mower but weaker loader and 3pt.

I'd say figure out what you want to do with the tractor over the long haul and buy the one that is better suited to your tasks. No doubt both a good machines.

newcountry · May 22, 2005

Can't add anything to that, but wanted to give Bob props for a great post! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Dargo · May 22, 2005

I shopped both late last year and found the Kubota to be less expensive than what I was quoted at my semi-local Kioti dealer. For some reason, here on TBN people seem to want to report that there is a huge difference in the cost of a new Kubota vs the cost of a new Kioti. I'm telling you from experience, that flat isn't the case. Also, right now I am considering changing tractors again. I'm really glad I didn't go with the Kioti. I've been pricing different tractors again in the last couple of weeks. The resale difference between the Kubota tractors and the Kioti tractors is staggering; especially if I'd paid full list for a Kioti and wanted to get rid of it a year later. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Maybe I would have been happy with the Kioti tractor and wouldn't have wanted to move now. Being that the only semi-local Kioti dealer isn't exactly into customer satisfaction though, I likely would have had the same issues. If I'm spending tens of thousands of dollars, I expect what I buy to do what it is advertised to do. If not, I expect the dealer to fix it properly and promptly. If that doesn't happen, I move on. You said that your nearest Kioti dealer is 75 miles away. That is about the same for me. There used to be 3 others closer, but they all went under. This is not to say that the tractors are bad, but it does say that in my area they don't sell well. Also, if your Kioti dealer is saying that he doesn't sell Kubota because they are bad, what does that tell you about that dealer? What would you expect a Kioti dealer to tell you; that Kioti is just like Kubota but is 25 years behind the curve?

The resale difference in 1 year old Kubota tractors vs 1 year old Kioti tractors is huge. The percentage of drop in the Kioti is steep, whereas it doens't look like I'll lose much if I do trade off my Kubota. Other than on TBN, I've not seen much of a following for Kioti. You've hit on the biggest fan base for Kioti in the world here. You will get rabid support for Kioti here. Check on eBay in the "completed auction" area to get a feel for what tractors have actually sold for; not what people are asking for them. Overall, the money spent still comes out of your pocket. If you are positive you will not want to trade soon, if you have a good local Kioti dealer, and you don't have to pay full retail or anywhere near that amount, then you may start comparing the features and benefits of each tractor and buy what you like. Myself, if I were in the same situation as I am now considering trading, and I'd bought a Kioti late last year, it would have been a huge financial error.

albmn10 · May 22, 2005

Hello Chuxter, sorry but i have to chime in here... As far as the price difference between Kubota and Kioti, the price difference is in the thousands favoring Kioti for similar hp machines...Do a search of several dealers for yourself. If you do go to ebay and look up the ck models your interested in, you wont find any... There are 4 Kioti items there and 256 Kubota.. Im not going to knock the Kubotas because there great tractors as well, but most people want to pick a tractor to last them a long time, if you find yourself wanting to trade it in yearly, perhaps you chose the wrong tractor to begin with.. Kioti is really coming into there own in the last few years with some really great machines and there quality and performance is as good as anyones...If someone is going to label me rabid for loving my tractor , perhaps thats a compliment and all owners should strive to like their tractors that much.. After all Kiotis slogan is " Pure Animal " so i guess the name fits...

Bob_Skurka · May 22, 2005

As far as the price difference between Kubota and Kioti, the price difference is in the thousands favoring Kioti for similar hp machine 

Pricing is regional, but to counter that, whenley, another TBN member purchased a B7510 for less than a CK20 recently. Not thousands less, but enough to swing the deal.

 If you do go to ebay and look up the ck models your interested in, you wont find any... There are 4 Kioti items there and 256 Kubota 

There is a very logical reason for this. First, Kubota commands something between 40% and 50% of the compact tractor market, they sell more tractors each month than many of the minor manufacturers sell in a whole year. So there are simply many thousands more of them available in the market place. Second, Kubota has had some of their products in the market place for longer than the CK series has been around, so again, it is logical that there would be more of them in the market place.

 if you find yourself wanting to trade it in yearly, perhaps you chose the wrong tractor to begin with 

Or perhaps you have the money and the desire to have new things on a regular basis? I know many people who trade their cars in every year or two. Heck I've been known to do that. I've had 4 Jeep Grand Cherokees, never kept them for too long just kept getting a newer one. Doesn't mean there was anything wrong with the one I got rid of. In fact the last one I had I gave to one of my employees as a gift, she's been driving it for 18 months now. And while I replace that Grand Cherokee with a different brand, I am in the market again this year. Nothing wrong with the one in the garage, I just am considering a newer version, at less than 2 years old. Some people do the same with tractors, and Dargo may just be one of those people.

 Kioti is really coming into there own in the last few years with some really great machines 

I'm going to agree with you on this, but I will also point out that the same thing can be said about Mahindra and Massey Ferguson, both seem to have really come on strong over the past few years with model introductions and upgrades, both are value priced machines, and both offer lots of features and performance. I think it is fine to be rabidly loyal, but really that often does a diservice to people who don't yet know what they need. Each brand has strenghts and weaknesses. But Chuxter needs to really sit down and look at his tasks and then figure out for himself what type of tractor he needs and what features will serve him best. He certainly needs to consider all brands, distance to the dealer, dealer quality, price, etc.

albmn10 · May 22, 2005

I agree that chuxter should find the right machine for his needs. I never knocked the Mahindras or Masseys, or Kubotas for that matter. The point is that a previous post was misleading that you could go to ebay and find a huge price difference for new and used Kiotis, i just pointed out using his own reference that there are no Cks on there.... Just stated the facts..I agree there are more Kubota equipment on there because they are a bigger company and have been around longer, logical reason.. If your think your going to get close to new prices for year old tractors, that may have been true in the past, but with 0 percent financing and large increases in steel prices,and all the new competition, good luck getting close to new tractor prices on trade ins today.. Youd have to be nuts to buy used if you could have new for a few dollars more, wont happen. Pricing is regeional on all tractors, here in NY price differences is huge between Kubota and Kioti, I shopped both extensively, Kiotis are alot cheaper.If you go down south and the midwest Kiotis are much cheaper then here in NY, So one would imagine that the other brands would be as well... This was not intended to be a insult or to get off topic, But being labeled for liking a tractor as being rabid, just isnt right....Bottom line is Chuxter is right posting here and In the other chat rooms, my advice to him is to go look and test drive all brands in his Hp class, He will know when hes found the right one..

Bob_Skurka · May 22, 2005

being labeled for liking a tractor as being rabid, just isnt right 

I only used the term because you did when you referred to your own loyalty to the brand, and you will notice I did not imply the term as derogitory. I'm guessing you used the term because Dargo used it and he did not do it in any insulting way. He said there is rabid support for the brand. No value levied. Kioti owners seem to refer to the animal on many levels, I believe that is what Dargo was doing.

 i just pointed out using his own reference that there are no Cks on there.... Just stated the facts 

No there are no CKs there, but you also stated that there are 256 Kubotas there, which may be a "fact" but you didn't filter it down to 1 year old Kubotas or even Kubotas that are roughly similar to the CKs. So your posting of facts is somewhat loose. Now don't get me wrong, Dargo may have been playing loose too. I'm not defend him, just pointing out that you essentially did what you accuse him of doing.

 If your think your going to get close to new prices for year old tractors, that may have been true in the past, but with 0 percent financing and large increases in steel prices,and all the new competition, good luck getting close to new tractor prices on trade ins today 

In another thread, just about a week ago, I pointed out that I was offered exactly the same price I paid as trade in on a new tractor that I was pricing. Now it was a different brand, neither Kubota or Kioti, and I purchased it at a great price, before the steel price increases, and the new model that replaced mine is a higher priced so the demand for my version is very strong right now. But the fact of the matter is I could trade it in for what I paid for it almost 2 year ago.

 my advice to him is to go look and test drive all brands in his Hp class, He will know when hes found the right one.. 

Honestly I am not trying to pick on you, but I have to disagree with PART of what you wrote. In any given HP class there are a couple different TYPES of machines. For example, we are looking at fairly small machines, in this HP range you can find Lawn Tractors, Garden Tractors, Sub-CUTS, and small frame CUTs. Within each of those groupings you can find differences in design and build. Someone out shopping might assume that the biggest, most powerful machine is ALWAYS the best. That simply isn't true. For example, take the concept of the Swiss Army Knife. Is it a good knife? Most will conclude that is lousy for cleaning a bird, sub par for skinning a bear, over rated as a pruning saw, a lousy compass and pretty bad magnifying glass, yet able to do each of those tasks and a screw in a screw (both regular & philips head) as well as having a toothpick, tweezers and a few other things. Tractors are often asked by us owners to be Swiss Army Knives. We owners, especially new owners might not understand the difference between the design of a heavy Kioti or a light Kubota. Let's be real honest here, the Kubota B7510 is going to be pretty lously at skidding logs out of the woods! It will struggle with a box blade in heavy clay soil. But with the suspension deck, it will mow better than many dedicated lawn tractors, and still power a snow blower, tiller, or auger. Sure it will handle a box blade, but it won't do it as well as the heavy Kioti. Now conversely, the heavy Kioti is not the best mowing machine on the market, it weighs more than any 21hp machine I know of and would easily rut a wet clay yard, the mid mount mower is probably not the worst on the market, but it is a weak spot for the brand. But it is a beast with a box blade & clearly compared to the Kubota in that right. It will also handle the snow blower, tiller & auger, just as the Kubota will. So it really depends on the jobs you want to do as to which tractor is better, and again, being honest, no dealer is going to tell you about the disadvantages of excess weight or the disadvantages of light weight.

Dargo · May 22, 2005

albmn10, I'll be blunt. I did shop Kioti as well as Kubota late last year. Kioti was more expensive at the only "local" dealer. Period. No other story. Your statement that Kioti is thousands less is the standard Kioti line. It may be true in other parts of the country, but not where I live. If you are implying that I am lying, I choose to dismiss anything you say due to the fact that you do not care about facts; only heresay.

Also, your stats on eBay show that Kioti is even a less recognized brand than I thought. I knew that Kioti was not common at all where I live, but based upon the support here on TBN, I wouldn't have expected there to be 64 Kubotas to every one Kioti. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Again, I am saying nothing bad about Kioti other than there is a much more limited audience for the purchase of a new one and a used one. On the resale value of a year or two old tractor; it is obvious that you have never owned a John Deere, New Holland or Kubota. It has been very common, and it still is very common, to get nearly all of the cash outlay back even in only a year or two if you take good care of the unit.

I am simply giving the facts as I have experienced them. Your banter is the standard blanket line that Kioti is "thousands less for the same thing". Perhaps Kioti has progressed to the point where they do not sell on price alone any longer. Whatever the case, your statement is simply misleading as a blanket statement.

You are also inconsistant on whether you are a "rabid" supporter of Kioti. First you take it as a compliment, then you take it as an insult. Fortunately, Bob got it correct when he stated that it was intended as neither. Browse TBN for a while and you will see that comment frequently. It is neither derogatory nor complimentary; nor is it racist! If you are trying to paint me as a Kioti basher, you also missed. I would not have travelled the distance to look at, and try to negotiate on, one if I thought they were simply a cheap knock-off. I think they are a decent tractor but Kioti needs more dealers and a better dealer network. Don't rule out the possiblilty that I could own one in the future. It sounds foreign to you, but I have owned about 15 new tractors in the last 25 years. On Kioti, they are what they are, and it is what it is. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

albmn10 · May 22, 2005

Dargo, you better go back and reread your own posts in regards to Kioti..Maybe your a bit passive aggressive...I take no offense to your opions of Kioti or your labels as well.. I do have a 2 year old John Deere tractor that will never get close to what i payed for it,already tried, and its in mint condition...As far as my intentions were to simply inform chuxster to do his homework , which means several dealers,prices,brands and so on..You gave him your account on your local dealer, i gave him mine.. I never said you lied about your pricing, i didnt lie either... Let him find out pricing for himself, if you have specific prices on a unit, share it.. My response to your ebay comment was on your saying 1 yr old Kioti tractors have no resale,thats a blanket statement...You implied for him to go check Ebay.Chuxter is interested in learning about the Ck20, so i went to Ebay and found there were no Cks there at all..Only followed your advise you gave to him...So whats next? Chuxster should plug in all of his top choices on his tractors in the search engine and read tell his hearts content.Im sure he will find what hes looking for..

MessickFarmEqu · May 22, 2005

( Of course the Kioti dealer says there is no comparison to the Kubota but thats why he sells Kioti and not Kubota. )

There is a saying among dealers that goes

"There are two kinds of dealers, those who are Kubota dealers and those who wish they where"

Which is very true, its very difficult to get Kubota dealership contracts now. There was just one that became available about two hours from me and there were over 10 people who asked for it within a matter of days.

Donnyj · May 22, 2005

My first choice for a tractor was Kubota. I tried and I tried to buy one. Out of my price range. Great tractor though. I then found out about Kioti. I checked prices and found that not only was the tractor in my price range, but I could get additional horsepower and to me the all important weight advantage. Plus there was money left over for 2 attachments. I had concerns with my dealer, but all manufactures have "bad" dealers. The Kioti I bought will hold up right beside the Kubota in my opinion. Granted it is a chance buying the Kioti over the Kubota, but I feel satisfied with my choice. After using mine for the short time that I have owned it, I don't think if they were the same price that I would buy the Kubota. I really like the Kioti tractor. The Kubota engine is well respected, but I feel the Kioti engine is just as smooth and plenty of power. As far as durability? Only time will tell. I first bought the Kioti for the price and features, but now I would keep it because I like it better. I have no reason to trade it in any time soon. I really like this tractor!! You will like any of the two manufactures or any of the other well made tractors out there as well. Find the one you want and buy it. Don't worry what is it going to be worth a year from now. What is it worth to you now and years down the road? That is what really matters. Does it do what you need it to do? Mine does. Very well as of right now!
Donny

kjd · May 23, 2005

I will post my 2 cents here since I just went with through the whole used vs. new buying expereince and I tried out the Kioti, Kubota, Deere, Cub Cadet, Case/IH and New Holland.

First things first, you have to compare apples to apples. I was looking for wither a sub-CUT or CUT. When it comes to the size class the models I compared were the the Kioti CK20HST, Kubota BX2230, JD 2210, The CUb 5234, and Case/NH DX24Z (I think that is the right model number...both the Case and NH are the same machine, different color)

What I needed was a tractor with about 22HP, diesel, MMM and FEL. In regards to price, only the Cub and the Kubota were close. My price for a BX2230 w/FEL, 60"MMM and turf was $12,667. The Cub was $12,800. The JD w/ only the FEL was $12,995, the Case/NH were both $13,900 w/ the FEL and MMM.

Now, since the whole point is to discuss the Kioti, here is what I found. There was a dealer really close to me, about 10 miles, but he was selling the CK20HST for $14,900 w/FEL and he wouldn't go lower...I met him in person. I called another dealer and he quoted me over the phone $13,500 w/ FEL only. Both dealers told me the MMM stinks for the Kioti, and that has been backed-up on TBN's boards.

My decision came down to price and the 0% financing. I couldn't see spending more for the Case/NH, Deere and Kioti. All were equal to one another in size, and slightly bigger than the BX, but not by much. They do look more like bigger tractors, but I didn't care. Kubota is a househld name and a lot of peope want Kubota orange plain and simple. I liked the BX's manueverability much better than the others. I also chose it over the Cub due to their history, dealer support and the lack of Cub's in the market.

You will find that any quality, non-chinese or grey market tractor will really holds its value. I was looking at 5 year old BX2200's with 500 hours at no less than $10k...and that is w/o a mower deck. It's simple supply and demand..sub-CUT's and CUT's are becoming more popular, but the overall used invetory is low. Therefore, prices will remain high for older models. However, the used market will expand, especially w/ the 0% price incentives.

Don't know if this helps. The best thing to do is visit all of your local tractor dealers regardless of brand, drive 'em and start asking pricing questions. My dealer knew I was serious and I got a great price. Good luck!

pmoon · May 23, 2005

For me Kioti does not have a tractor in the HP range that I'm looking for with HST. For what I need to do I'd like a HST in the mid 30's to 40. Kioti does not have a tractor that fits that discription - I'm sure they make a first rate tractor but they don't make one that's in the 31HP+ anything range with HST.

Mr_Digger · May 23, 2005

I don't know 'bout you good ole boys down there, but up here in the great white north I chose my Kioti hands down over Kubota & Dear John (pun intended). The Kubota dealer up here was a real knob to deal with. They had an older machine with loader & hoe & 1900 hours on it & rotted out with salt for $26,000 Can. I bought my Kioti brand new with a 5 year warranty with loader & hoe for the same money. The Dear John's backhoe was a mortal pain(7 hours to install & the same to remove). The Kioti is 5 minutes to change out. The dealer treats me very well, no complaints at all. My LB1914 is as tough as they come & I got the hole in the backyard to prove it /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

KiotiJohn · May 23, 2005

( Did any of you look at a Kioti?? I am considering a BX 23 or a B7510 then I saw Kioti, did you go have the same problem trying to decide or was the choice obvious? Which Kioti is close in comparison to the BX 23 or B7510? )
I had looked at most majors, gray markets and other used tractors for a year before I ever even saw a Kioti. I had pretty much thought that I'd end up with Kubota. Then one day a man showed me his used Kioti, first I'd seen, and I liked it a lot. I drove down the road, going to look at Bransons, and happened across a Kioti dealer on the side of a major road.
When the dealer showed me the CK20HST and I tried it out, and found out how much he DIDN'T want compared to the B75xx Kubota, I didn't get out of the dealership without a contract sale.
Over 300 hours later, I'm very happy with the tractor. The extra weight was just my cup of tea for being able to use the extra HP. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't mind if it weighed even more, but that's a personal choice.
The money that I saved over the Kubota (about $2000 in my case) went a long way to helping pay for the backhoe I ordered that day.
As to the heated discussion that has preceded me, it's the same old story. If you want to know about a brand, talk to an owner, not a non-owner. Non-owners have plenty of reasons they don't own a certain thing, but can't tell you how the thing really is because they DON'T own one.
I have to agree that some Kioti dealers don't quite get the idea that one of Kioti's main selling points is more for less, and they try to get full retail where other dealers realize that discounting to some degree will keep folks from running to the competition. Those dealers will find out the hard way. That's the case with the major brands that I saw, they just couldn't get the price down enough to compete, and comparisions between the brands made the Kioti really shine for the money.
John

schole · May 23, 2005

Kioti is NOT less expensive than Kubota (new) in all locations.

As Dargo said earlier and KiotiJohn said, "I have to agree that some Kioti dealers don't quite get the idea that one of Kioti's main selling points is more for less, and they try to get full retail where other dealers realize that discounting to some degree will keep folks from running to the competition. Those dealers will find out the hard way. "

I purchased an L3400DT Kubota (34.7 hp) for nearly $2000 (Cdn) less than the Kioti CK30 with gears and shuttle -- 0% financing too!! (This, too, after weeks of negotiating...I really wanted to get the Kioti for less $$$ after all I had read here).

Dealers vary -- go for the most hp for the $$ and whatever seems to 'fit' best when you drive it.

I can't say enough good things about my L3400!

Shawn

Dargo · May 23, 2005

Nice post Shawn. I like to see that you realize that I am not a "Kioti basher", but went with the best choice financial choice for me in my location.. Unfortunately, some people think I am "slamming" Kioti for this decision. Truthfully, I guess I am slamming my Kioti dealer; not Kioti. I, too, expected a better price.

Speaking of slamming, I spoke with a Mahindra dealer (since they also have factory cab tractors) who told me that Kioti used a lot more recycled steel than they did, and to be wary of the selling point that Kioti tractors are heavier; a lot of recycled steel. I went to Kioti's official website to report this claim and to ask for the official reply. Unfortunately, Kioti's customer support email address has been discontinued. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif Besides my feeling that they need more dealers, I think it is a bad idea to drop their customer support email address.

gmsssi · May 23, 2005

In my case, it all came down to how I physically fit to the tractor. I'm a big guy and I searched all the brands but chinese. Price is an issue but I'm not gonna buy something that I plan on sitting in for long periods of time.

Through this forum you'll find great information, mostly good on all the brands. In my tractor requirements, I would have bought any of the brands and I have prices, brochures, loader specs and numerous posts for reference on all the tractors I searched. All that said I chose Kioti.

I just sold a Kubota which was a great machine, 8 years and not a problem. When I purchased it, I also looked at Kioti. The reason I didn't buy the Kioti was the youth of the product in USA.

First choice was a gear drive Mahindra, I sat much to far forward and the shifter location would have worn my left thigh raw. Then the Farmtrac, felt like I was in a cacoon. The Kubota's were only comfortable in the L series and price knocked them out. In the Kioti's I sat well in a CK and great in a DK.

I ordered a DK45s. Kubota never compared in price against the Kioti in my intensive search. Features on this model that also sold me were remotes, 3 pt hydraulic lever in the rear and weight.

Get a tractor that fits you! I'm now off my soap box, its anyones floor.

Bird · May 23, 2005

What's wrong with recycled steel? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif And in case you're wondering, I have no idea whether or not any of the tractor manufacturers are using it, but I know of no reason not to.