L4330 FEL breakout questions

ttowne66 · Mar 25, 2006

Hello All

I am mostly very satisfied with my newly aquired 4330 but have a few questions regarding the FEL capability of this tractor.

1) I am assuming that "breakout" is the limit in force before the hydrulic will simply not lift. I.E. you have the handle all the way open to lift but lifting is no longer taking place. Correct?

2) should the "breakout" force be such that you can't get the loader to lift a full to overloaded sized bucket of soil out of a pile?

3) Lets say that you have just pushed the bucket all the way into a pile and you are trying to lift a bucket out. shouldn't the tractor RPM go down and perhaps try to stall while trying to lift this load.

4) I can end up with a full bucket on this thing but it normally takes a couple shots at the pile. any ammount of material over the bucket and it will not lift out.

5) Does something sound wrong with my hydro pump or valve or something else after describing these issues or is there an adjustment for breakout force.

Any help would be appreciated.

KennyV · Mar 26, 2006

1) Break out is the curl part of the loader… because of the way the bucket is attached you have more curl power than boom lift power.

2) You will probably be able to curl a load that you can not lift. Also an overloaded bucket is ‘overloaded’ /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif…

3) When you push your bucket into that pile, curl it up before you try to lift. That should help break it loose, the hydro system will not support doing both curl and lift with a good load in the bucket.

4) Depending on what you are lifting, you could have more in the bucket than you can lift. Try using the curl to break it loose…

5) The break out is directly related to the hydraulic bypass valve setting. You can check that with a pressure gage if you suspect it is low. It can be adjusted but don’t exceed max pressure. KennyV.

ttowne66 · Mar 26, 2006

KennyV

Thanks. The loader capabilities just seem very weak for a tractor of this size. Shouldnt the hydro pump stress the motor a little, bringing down the RPM a few hundred???? Mine doesn't!!!!!!! Since I posted I have found the following threads on this issue (or non issue as the case may be). These are a bit old but full of great info. Does anyone have any new info in addition to what was wrote back then. Thanks again.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Board/owning/Number/459277/page/0/view//sb/5/fpart/2/vc/1/o/all
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Board/buildit/Number/820832/page/1/view/collapsed/sb/5/fpart/1

CT_Tree_Guy · Mar 27, 2006

Howdy ttowne -

I think you're experiencing the same problem I had with my hydraulics when I first got my tractor (5030/with 853). I was not at all impressed with the strength of the loader, and it turned out the relief valve setting was way too low; maybe 2350 psi instead of 2600. My tractor guy (Bob Wolff at Woodbury Tractor in Woodbury CT, heck of a guy) fixed me up with a shim or two in the main junction box (the loader valve itself was OK) and the difference was HUGE. Those psi's really add up; if you have say 3 square inches of rod area (two cylinders combined), then an extra 250 pounds of hydraulic pressure should give you about 750 more pounds of lift; quite a bit. I encourage you to have the pressures checked and reset as soon as you can - I think you'll like the results. here's a thread where I replied to someone who was having the same problem: Question about our 5030 HST (hydraulics and 3 pt)

Once you boost the pressure, I bet you'll be able to lift a full bucket of just about anything (except maybe lead, or gold). /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I've gotten 3,200 lbs. (just barely) off the ground with my loader, including the 800-lb. grapple.

As for breakout force: there have been a lot of discussions here about how it is calculated, and it's pretty complicated. As I understand it, it's not just curling force and not just lifting force, but rather a combination of the two, with maybe some other factors as well. A TBN or Google search would give you plenty to read about; or, just boost up your hydraulics and spare yourself the agony. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

And as to the hydro pump slowing down the engine; even when lifting the heaviest loads I've never noticed the engine slowing down much at all. With a 4330, you've got a lot of power at your disposal, and I don't think your engine really breaks a sweat powering your hydraulics. A 5 or 8-hp woodsplitter packs a heck of a punch, and you've got 5 to 8 times more power than that. I think boosting your main relief valve setting will bring a big smile to your face, as it did to mine. Just bring it up to just below the maximum, like 2600 or so, and enjoy. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Good luck, John

ttowne66 · Mar 27, 2006

Tree-Guy

As always, thanks for your info. You have been a very helpfull and knowledgable resource for this board. After reading some other posts I decided to get a gage and plumb it in to the system. The gage is on the bucket dump line off the loader valve. If I set the bucket flat on the ground then dump the bucket to lift the front end off the ground the gage would go to 2000psi quickly. Then, if I held the lever after it had finished extending all the way out, it would slowly (about 10 sec.) creep up to 2400psi . I had a few shims from my snowmobile shocks that would fit perfectly. So I started with .05 thick (for the guy who doesnt know, that is between 1/32 and 1/16). This took me up to 2400psi quickly with a slow, (again about 10 sec) rise to 2900psi after it reached full extension. At this point it would just stay at 2900 until I let off so I guess the limit is now 2900psi but normally you would not hold it there like that so I would expect the normal "operation to be between 2400 to 2700. I will find out tomorrow if this has a noticable effect on the operation.

The only other quirk with this tractor has been the 3pt operation. Everything works fine but it takes a lot of lever travel to move the 3pt arms. When it does finally move (after about 1in of lever movement) the arms raise about an inch to an inch and a half. Not a huge issue but it makes me wonder if there is a simple fix for this as well. It drops super smooth with light inputs to the lever having a slight movement down. Also, I can lift the arms by hand and there is no binding or any other noticable issues. Several Dealers were suposed to get back to me last week but as usual "no response". I find the info here more usefull and speedy than dealers anyways. Thanks again.

Tom

ttowne66 · Mar 27, 2006

Looking back at what I wrote I wonder if the term relief is determined by the inital point that it starts "relieving" or finishes "relieving". All we are doing here is giving the spring a little more "pre-load" before it starts its relief then the extra pressure is what compresses the spring to the point that pressure equalizes and stays at its final number. There is a definate transition period between these values and it appears to be around 10 seconds and 500psi. Food for thought!

CT_Tree_Guy · Mar 27, 2006

ttowne -

Thanks for the kind words. Nice work on boosting the pressure on your own, that's very resourceful of you.

You raise an interesting question about a possible time frame involved in system pressure and relief valve operation. I'd never thought about that, as it always seemed to me that the relief valve would simply open at a certain pressure and not allow any more to build up, period (like a thermostat will maintain a given temperature).

Maybe your question can be answered by someone with more knowledge of hydraulics than I have, but in the meantime I just hope you don't have too much pressure - 2900 is quite a bit higher than the theoretical limit, though I hear you when you say that your "real life" operating pressures might be lower than that. There's probably a pretty big "fudge factor" built into the maximum psi setting, but I didn't want to tempt fate, so we left it just below the max. I don't think that my pressures can go over 2600 no matter how long I lean on the loader control.

This makes me want to install a permanent gauge as well - I always like to know what's going on - sometimes to a fault. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Take care, John

ttowne66 · Mar 27, 2006

Tree-Guy

Yea, I certainly wouldnt normaly hold the valve fully open for 10 seconds after full extension on either boom or bucket curl circuts. Here is the link to the photo of the gage installed by patk.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forumfiles/464419-hydaulic%20pressure%20adjust.JPG
If you decide to add the gage please let me know if the pressure you originaly obtained was initial load or final load.

Thanks.

ttowne66 · Mar 27, 2006

Shirt, I posted the wrong link. Here is the shot from PatK.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forumfiles/467953-L3830-Gauge.jpg

JerryG · Mar 28, 2006

<font color="blue"> The only other quirk with this tractor has been the 3pt operation. Everything works fine but it takes a lot of lever travel to move the 3pt arms. When it does finally move (after about 1in of lever movement) the arms raise about an inch to an inch and a half. Not a huge issue but it makes me wonder if there is a simple fix for this as well. It drops super smooth with light inputs to the lever having a slight movement down. Also, I can lift the arms by hand and there is no binding or any other noticable issues. </font>
ttowne66,
This is one of those things that may not make since until you thing about it off hand. The reason that the lever takes quit a bit of movement to start with is because the three point is actually made to allow the attachments to go below ground. If it wasn’t made that way, we would have a problem with some ground engaging implements.

Now about being able to lift the lift arms by hand. The reason that you are able to do this is because the tractor has what is called float built into the three point. The TP has up-pressure only and is made to free float up also. That way when you go a ridge or hard place, the implement can follow the contour of the land without lifting the rear of the tractor loosing traction.