L4400 Row spacing?

[e.myers]

Showing my ignorance here....

Considering purchasing a one or two row planter to use for planting field corn etc., but I have never used a tractor for planting.
I think my tire centers are currently set at 51.2" based on my measurements (center of rear tire to center of rear tire) and the manual. This comes out to 38" between tires, which matches the front between tires (which are not adjustable). I THINK my preference is for 36" row centers, but would not be opposed to 30" or 38", or some sort of twin row configuration. +/-. According to the manual, the max distance the rear centers can go is 60.8" BUT since the front centers cannot be adjusted, that would put the front tires rolling over things that the back tires are not.

So, I'm having trouble figuring this out. Seems like it makes the most sense to leave the tires where they are because in the current configuration, the front and back tire insides line up with each other +/-.

So, what are my options here? Not opposed to a single row planter (I think I would actually prefer it for my small scale) if that could make sense some how.

Any ideas? Suggestions?

 

[ovrszd]

If you are thinking of buying an old 2 row mounted planter, the rows will probably be 36". A new planter might be adjustable. I'm thinking back to the old 8N Ford tractor days. Rears were left set in and ran just outside the 2 rows. Fronts were set out all the way and used as markers. In your case you'll hafta guess on the row width between each pass.

 

[sixdogs]

You might be looking up center-to-center spacing dimensions because I set up my L4400 FWD and for corn on 30 inch centers and I had a few inches left between the tire track and the row on each side. I go one way in the row then turn around and come back in my tracks.
For the next pair of rows--and I forget year to year--I think I put the edge of my front tire on the outside edge of the prior track. At the end of that row I turn around and follow my tracks back. Rinse and repeat endlessly and the field came out looking great.

Then I used a two row sidedresser for fertilizer and when the plants were six inches high put down some nitrogen.

It works fine and after you figure out the row spacing and tire tracks can put down a lot of seed in a hurry. Two row works best for this size tractor. One row wastes too much space. Let me add that I have seen guys set up a two row planter to place seed on each side of one tire and then do row after row that way and it worked. The way I mention, however, seems the easiest for me.

 

[e.myers]

Ovrszd-
Well, I guess that says it all. If there's a will there's a way- Hopefully it works out in my case.
Sixdogs- yeah, center to center of rear is what I'm looking at. So, you have your planter offset to one side of the tractor rear end to make this work right? With your method I guess you could still use a cultivator? Run back in your same tracks?
I made a little diagram of your system and it looks like if for your third row, if you overlap your previous tread by 1/2 then you wind up with an almost perfect 30" row spacing for the whole field (30/30/29/30/30/29/30/30....). If you line up the edges of the treads then you end up with something more like 30/30/35/30/30/35/30/30. Both of these scenarios leave approximately 3.5" between each tire and each row. Would that be enough room to run a cultivator that was set up to run in the center of the tractor and directly behind each tire? Not sure how cultivators are normally set up..... would this work?

I guess if this would work with one planter offset at the rear, then there is no reason why a two row planter on a toolbar set up for 30" centers wouldn't work right?

So, I could just get a single row planter that mounts to a toolbar, adjust it off center, and later if it becomes worth my while, I could just purchase another one and add it to the tool bar? Guess this could work with planters that also have a fertilizer box, meaning the fertilizer attachment would work also?

What am I missing? Any other ideas?

Thanks!

What am I missing?

 

[sixdogs]

I have done both a two row and one row planter. With the two row I also had a two row cultivator setup with a side dresser attachment. It worked great because the two row planter kept the rows uniform so the culticator worked better at not damaging too many plants. A cultivator would not work as well with a one row planter because of variances in planting distances. Planting by itself is a piece of cake.

Your 60" centerline of rears and a 14.9 wide tire gives you 45" between the tires. So a 30" row spacing, which is what you should use, maths out to 7" left on each side of the tire. A two row would be great.

To use a one row planter in this situation you would need a "unit planter" clamped to a toolbar so you can slide it over to be 7" away from the tire. An IH 56 or 295 or many IH planters are unit planters and are reasonable. JD also has lots of units and the 71 comes to mind. Any planter works but the unit planters are easier to work with and you can plant and turn in tighter spaces. In a month or so I can photo my setup. Older planters that are fixed at 38" or 42" are too wide, waste too much space, are difficult to handle and the wide spacing lets too many weeds start. But that are good at what they do ---planting.

Your math and tire spacing is correct but you have to try it out and measure. In practical application you will wander 6" in the row from ground contour so plant in FWD and they will be straighter.

Fill out your profile a bit with general location so we know soil type and climate ideas. There were things I could have written if I knew soil type and climate.

Forgot to add that the fertilizer units will work fine. You can avoid side-dressing by giving an initial blast of 19-19-19 if your soil is good enough.

 

[e.myers]

sixdogs-
Thanks for getting back.... Notice that I filled out my profile. Soil up on my hill is primarily Sandy Loam top 4-6"+ and a well drained sandclay below that.

Unfortunately, my tire centers are NOT 60". They are currently set to 51.2" centers from the factory. That would work out to optimal row spacing of only 25.6". Now my rear centers could be moved out to 60" BUT my fronts are fixed and as things are currently line up with the insides of my rear tires. So, moving the rears doesn't really accomplish much (I don't think).
Because of this I was kind of considering twin rowing my corn and okra (the primary crops I'll be planting with the tractor). I'm thinking this could work..... Any thoughts?
Regardless, you have me leaning towards a two row cultivator/sidedresser/detachable planter combo. Therefor, looks like I'm looking for a "unit planter" to attach to a toolbar that I purchase separately. I'll look into the brands you mention.
I'm toying with some other ideas that all of your help might ultimately get incorporated into.
If you're bored, take a look in the general forums under "implements" and a thread started by me called something to the effect of "does this attachment exist". I'd be interested in your thoughts. My thinking is I can just attach all the cultivator tynes, planter, sidedresser etc to a 3 row "toolbar" (rather than a typical cultivator) and still end up with the same results.

Thanks

 

[sixdogs]

Just a brief reply now but more tomorrow. I am presuming you have ag tires and if so, leave the fronts alone and move the rears to the 60.2" +/- setting. That will work just the way you want and is why Kubota (and others) set spacing that way. Rows of 30" work best for many reasons.

A two row planter that puts down fertilizer ain't cheap in the spring. You can also just use a two row planter and "get by" with a hand fertilizer side dresser until you find a fertilizer unit. I used to side dress with a two row unit but put in less corn now and use an Earthway (I think) hand unit. My two row plater got sold and I use a one row 295 IH planter on a toolbar. I use a Troybilt tiller to cultivator between the rows and spray the weeds with 2,4-D

Don't cultivate too much or you'll kick up all sorts of weed seeds and make your life heck.

More later.

 

[ruralNearDallas]

Please allow a possibly very dumb question. For planting, why does tire spacing matter? The planter is behind the tractor. Is it a problem for the planter to do its work even on soil tires ran over? Don't planters prepare, open, drop seed, and cover?

 

[e.myers]

sixdogs-
I don't understand. What does moving my tires out to 60" accomplish if my fronts are fixed at the same inside dimensions as my rears are currently at? I mean, even if I move my rear tires, the fronts will be tracking to the inside of the rears and and still 4" +/- from the plants. The planter/cultivator set up we are discussing can be set up on my current setup too (I think), so what does moving my rears out accomplish in the long run? Probably the main issue I have with moving my rears (since I can't move my fronts) is that my bucket lines up with my rears (ballpark) so I can look at my bucket and know where my tires are so I don't hook something with them while I'm dreaming about all the dollars I'm making doing this. Also, my tiller covers the tracks as is. Won't happen if I move them out. If there is a good reason to do it, I'll do it, but just wanted to bring this up.
I have a troy built tiller also that I'm using alot for cultivating (that and by hand). Just wondering how that system is going to work out on as much as 2 acres of corn with okra on 150' rows that will go in the ground very soon. I tried an earthway seeder last year for peas and okra and it didn't work out so well for me (multiple seeds and skips etc) and very erratic seed planting depth. Now, I didn't prepare the soil early enough so there was a lot of trash in it that caused problems too so maybe I need to give it another try. So you have the fertilizer attachment I guess (on the earthway). How do you use it and on how much corn? What's manageable from your perspective. I'm fully aware that just because something promises to speed up chores, that isn't necessarily the case.

ruralneardallas-
Have you read any of my posts/threads? Well I can promise you in this context there are no dumb questions! Here's my uninformed take on your question. It's not a problem with planting at all. The problem is with using a cultivator AFTER you are finished planting. The problem lies in wheel spacing and the fact that, depending on how you have things set up, you'll be running over everything you just planted when you come back to try to cultivate.

 

[sixdogs]

You move the rears out so you seed into ground that has been cultivated. If you drive over it first you will inadvertantly provide a lovely seedbed for all the weeds that would likely not germinate if in softer ground wilth less soil to seed contact. Compacted, the weeds will spout, get out of control as weed seeds often do and multiply your weed seed problem 1000 fold for next year.
So the rears get moved out. The fronts will then line up with the inside edge of the rears and offer a guiding light, so to speak, that helps you keep your rows on the straight and narrow and where they are supposed to be.

Your Troybil won't do two acres unless you have maybe three hired hands who want to do it and you are retired so you can do hand weeding. It will likely get wildly out of control because you haven't gone through the learning curve of knowlege and experience required.

On corn, I plant about 12 to 16 rows by 500 ft long and i do it in three pieces to stagger maturity. I am extremely weed conscious and rarely does one go to seed so my job becomes progressively easier. I spray weeds with 2-4 D and knock the grass back or cultivate it up. Planting is with a one row planter as we discussed and on a 30" center with room for the Troybilt. Maybe 5 % gets killed by tilling error.
After the plants sprout, I fill the Earthway fertilizer unit with 19-19-19 and run it down both side of the plants at maximum amount and 4" over and 4" deep. I do not sidedress after that. Pretty soon, it's a battle of wits twix me and the racoons.

When i used to have a two-row planter I did maybe an acre+ and did it on the same 30" center and set up my L4300 as I mentioned to you. At planting, I put down the maximum amount of 19-16-16 that I could and then when the corn was less than a foot tall i sidedressed straight 46-0-0. Either way, my corn is some of the best around. During cultivation, which was close to the plant, I probably tilled up 5% or so in error. It happens.

You probably aren't going to make any money the first year. You will actually lose money because of that learning experience. Better bet is to plant so the family can have and freeze sweet corn and you might happen to sell some. With the pressure off, you'll catch on quicker. Well, I did and I've tried it lots of ways. In fact, I started with 15 or so acres. What was I thinking?

I'll go find your other posts and offer my free commentary.

 

[e.myers]

Apologies for the late reply.
Sixdogs-
If you had a cultivator in front of the planter (even though it was was behind the tires, would you still see it the same way? I mean, then there wouldn't be a "cultipacked" area that was being planted into correct? Again, my biggest problem with moving the tires out is the relationship to my Front End Loader.
With your 2 row planter planter set up, aren't you putting down a lot more N? Or, does the earthway put down more per application or are you putting down just as much because you come back on each side of the corn? Regardless of what's going on, looks like you're putting down somewhat more P&K with the earthway correct?
The way you do things in general makes a lot of sense to me! I think you're saying you scaled back and plant in three blocks at different times to keep the whole operation more manageable (not doing too much of the same thing at any one time). At the same time you're able to do it with smaller scale equipment. No preplant fertilizer and only sidedress once..... That's what I've been trying to get my head wrapped around down here. Biggest stumbling block for me was sidedressing without incorporating (other than a hand cultivator and watering in) and the delay of getting what the plants need where they need it. Using the earthway and incorporating at the roots sounds like it could work. I like it.
I have about 12 rows about 350' I can plant about right now (field corn). Thinking I'm going to make that a target. I'm in no hurry to get it all done at the same time so could block it out too. This year because of time constraints, I think I need to just use the earthway or hand stick it and be done with it for seeding also. Shouldn't kill me, my wife, or my boys for one year.

Thanks Again!

 

[sixdogs]

Taking it easy is the way to learn. I band as much 19-19-19 as I can at or near planting and would say the Earthway and planter/fertilizer unit put down somilar amounts. I band both sides of the plant with the Earthway unit. Four inches down and four inches to the side of the plant. When I put down enought at planting I really don't need to sidedress.

I get my corn ground ready by spraying with Roundup/Glyphosate to kill grass and whatever weeds I can. You better do this. I try not to disturb the ground much because of the weed seeds brought up. I do not cultivate when I plant for that reason and if you do it the weeds will get ahead of you and next year the problem will be 1000 fold worse.

I would only plant sweet corn. If you want field corn buy from an elevator or farmer and save yourself money and aggravation to say nothing of the idle time lost to weeding. I try to let zero weeds go to seed and you better think the same way or quit now and save the money. Also learn to use 2,4-D Amine to kill weeds. If you are organic or crunchy start procreating now because you'll need lots of labor to weed the endless weeds and grass from around the plant. You can cultivate in the middle of the row if you planted accurately.

The front tires don't have to move and in fact they only are in one fixed postion, right? Your loader is QT so you could just remove it. The only reason you need the front wheels is a guide for the planter so your rows are reasonably equal spaced you can cultivate without too much destruction of plants. By the way, fertilizer goes in a continuous line from one end to the other. If you are thinking of fertilizing each plant individually to save a few cents forget it.

 

[e.myers]

I think I'm following you with your planting technique and reasons behind it. Basically, you plant "no-till", but come back later and cultivate as required.
"Crunchy"... never heard of that one. Will have to look it up! Funny.
I'm not organic and I don't think I'm crunchy, and I'm not opposed to roundup. That being said, I've been experimenting with planting cover crops in the off season to help keep my weeds down. It's hit and miss sometimes.... this year I have a great stand of clover that is virtually suppressing the vast majority of fall/winter weeds AND should help suppress a lot of the spring/summer weeds..... if not, I'll till it in before anything goes to seed, then cultivate as required. On the other hand, I've got a field of rye and winter peas I tried and I didn't get a good stand and I'm wrestling with wether to go ahead and till it in now or chance some of the weeds and get at least a little out of the money I spent for seed and fertilizer. Hit and miss. I'm trying to work things out with cover crops, and I realize I may be wasting my time/money..... but we all take our gambles.
Well, the sweet corn is a given BUT, I also have some critters to feed (chickens, cows, with hogs in short order), so need to experiment with growing field corn to HOPEFULLY, save on some of the feed expenses. I'm thinking your "opposition" to feed corn is that it is in the ground for so long.... meaning a constant weeding problem. I'll just have to see for myself how it goes this year.... whether or not it's worth it to me. What's your favorite variety of sweet corn. I purchased some type of early variety already, but haven't picked a normal season type yet.
Correct. My front tires cannot move, so that's at least one thing I don't have to think about (har har). Moving the rears is still a "problem" though for me. It's not so much the bucket in and of itself, it's that I use the bucket to tell me where my rear tires are as I'm driving.... not unlike what you're talking about with using the front tires to help align the rows better for cultivating. Similarly, my tractor attached tiller covers my tire tracks the way it is set up currently, but won't do that if I move the tires out. That's why I asked the question about if I were to leave the rears in the same location, and set my planter up on a cultivator frame, and had a cultivator in front of the planter, then that would eliminate the "cultipacker effect" of the tires since the cultivators would "till up" the tractor depressions correct? What am I missing? Anyway, that would be ideal for me.... not having to change my setup. Interested in why you think this would or would not work.
Appreciate your insight.
Eddie

 

[sixdogs]

I'm OK on the field corn and here's a way to make your life real easy. Plant it deep enough and spray the rows with a pre-emergent herbicide. Weeds solved and time saved is immense. If you need a permit for this you can study hard and pass in a few hours. Contact Extension Agent but there are also some over the counter chemicals that work pretty well and you don't need a permit.

And OK, don't change your wheel setup. Spray Roundup or pre-emergent herbicide and forget the cultivating thing. Weed seeds live for eons just waiting for that glance of sunlight to start the wheels of growth in motion. Don't give it to them. In fact, I recall some sort of study in Holland or wherever that showed a benefit to cultivating at night when sunlight could not hit the weeds and it worked well.
Variety of sweet corn depends on local taste. We plannt the "SE" bicolor type--- Delictable. SE sweetcorn varieties can, they say, be planted next to each other without fear of cross pollination. Corn Seeds: Sugary Enhanced Bicolor Sweet Corn Seeds - Growing Sweet Corn | Harris Seeds Also, sweet corn on the cob that has been dried can be burned in a woodstove when added to wood. Just a thought.

Cover crops like clover may work if you catch stuff before it goes to seed and you have time for the extra effort required to make it work. I sort-of did it but it's better to spent time with the family plaing in the barn.

You would be better to track your rows off the front tire than the bucket. More accurate by far.

 

[e.myers]

Thanks for the link.
I was wondering whether or not to try one of the SE varieties. Your endorsement sealed the bid. I'll be ordering some soon. I better or it ain't gonna get planted this year.
FWIW, I'm not planning on using my bucket to track my rows..... Just saying that by watching my bucket when I'm doing work around here, I know where my rear tires are by the width of my bucket.... if my bucket fits, my tractor will fit. That wouldn't be the case if I were to move my rear tires out, and knowing me, I'd be pulling down all my sprinklers with the rears!
You ever do the corn in the woodstove thing? Can that be cost effective over purchasing electricity/gas to heat with? I've toyed with the idea of getting one of those forced air furnaces you put behind the house and tie into your ductwork.... but using wood. And I've looked at those pellet furnaces and wondered if they could make sense. Never thought about burning corn in a woodstove..... growing my own fuel other than wood. How would a winter translate into acres of corn needed to heat with?
Oh yeah, I looked up "crunchy" as best I could. Makes sense that the term would be tied in with organics. Can't believe I've never heard the term before.

 

[sixdogs]

Yup, sure have burned some whole ear sweet corn in the wood stove but it's a lot of work and you have to fight the mice and mold and misc tiny critters in the corn. Anything with wood is a hassle and probably not worth it UNLESS it's a part of your lifestyle and the wood is free. We burned 5 to 10 cords a year in a Defiant wood stove and have no regrets. I kept the chimney safe and clean and it was good.

Getting older means burning wood gets older as well and I thought about a corn stove or wood pellet stove. Both had plusses and minuses and both needed electricity. Then I learned that propane for me is nearly the same price as wood. So I went with that and on the cold days burn those pressed together blocks/bricks of hardwood chips. Like pellets but no electric needed. Plus, I put a fan near the front of the stoveand all the rooms in my single story house heated equally and were very comfortable. Most of all, it saved propane on the cold days.

There is the romance of many things agricultural and rural and you have to pick and choose that which makes the most efficient use of your talents and earning capacity. Plus, I presume you have kids and wife you you would or should desire to spend time with. You wouldn't want to spend your child's formative years having them hoe sweet corn, hmmm?

Most of us here are gentlemen farmers in that we don't want to knock ourselves out with all of the nasty work but just some of it. Imagine...you could spend 40 hours hoeing corn in the hot sun suffering skin damage that could later emerge as cancerous while your kids miss dodge-ball practice OR you could spray the ground with pre-emergent and have the free time to catch the whole game? Grow a waaaay smaller patch of sweet corn just for the kids and grow with them.

If you were to heat with a corn stove, that would make more sense than a lot of other things. Risk ofa chimney fire is low and there is a long burn time. The amount you need would be known by your neighbors that burn corn and then figure a farmer might get 165 or so bushels per acre. Sure you could grow it youself but your yield with no spray and diminishing grit might be 40 bu per acre. So you would be working for peanuts for dollars earned per acre.
Better to swap your trade with the farmer and have HIM plant and pre-emergent spray the corn you'll need. He could or should harvest it too but at least hand harvesting this way will give you something to actually harvest. After a year of this you'll figure it out.

Burning whole-ear sweet corn really does work and is a blend of cultures. Best bet, however, is to heat with a fossil fuel as a primary means and augment with corn or wood or wood pellets or my choice of pressed wood blocks.

Now, "crunchy" comes in only because I didn't know if you ideologically preferred one way over another and were unwilling to consider alternatves. I realize that you are not crunchy but didn't know that then.

Pick your battles with what you do and balance time exerted with the overall desire of the family. Most women like to look pretty and do nuturing things to a home. They will work in the field but any more than a very little bit is not wise. Let them do what they do best and hoeing corn might be low on the list. become a hobby farmer and do the work youself that is very costly to hire out. Good economics there. Steer clear of dangerous machinery until you assess the risk involved. Go the kids football game and grow some flowers for your wife. Just my free commentary here.