? make your own cellulose insulation?

[BHD]

Back in the 1977's there was a mother earth article called make your own insulation, a reprint of the story below,

HOW TO MAKE AND INSTALL YOUR OWN INSULATION...FOR 5? OR LESS A SQUARE FOOT!

I guess one could say I am cheap, LOL, but that is not the entire reason I am considering this,

my DD and SIL bought a house, and it needs insulation, (I have an insulation blower), that part is easy,

I have a old hammer mill, would have to make a good drive for it, as it is an old flat belt driven unit, the cyclone is going but I figured I could duct the blower off the mill into the stock trailer and cover the sides openings and let it accumulate in the trailer, the shovel it into the insulation blower, to put it back in the house where we wanted it.

now there is a disposal problem at this property, it is full of Old news papers, and cardboard boxes, (litterly truck loads of news papers), some have a little historical value, and most have no value, Since it would take 10 to 20 possibly more, pickup full trips to the land fill min, to dispose of the papers, and at an cost , the thought crossed my mind to possibly turn them in to insulation, from this article,

has any one ever tried it? and would old paper be worth the effort?

what is your opinion of an Idea like this,

 

[forgeblast]

It looks like a good idea. I would get a good mask to wear and do it on a day where they will be no rain or humidity. The main thing i was worried about was the fireproof/vermin proofing and they covered it well. I would do a small test batch see how it comes out. While it may be "worth" it $$ wise is it "worth" it time/effort/degree of difficulty wise.

 

[Workstead]

When my daughter and family lived in northern Minnesota the place they bought had a saw mill the previous owners ran. The saw mill was gone but the house was built with it's wood AND the saw dust was used to insulate the house. We were there in early February one year when the outside temps were in the minus 40's, without wind chill factor. The only heat they used was a stove in the living room and we slept upstairs so heat rising was the only way to get heat up there. All 5 bedrooms upstairs never got below 66 degrees. Nice and cozy. The only concern I had was if it had been treated for fire protection. Wood is cellulose and paper is made from wood.

The Mother Earth News article sure brings back some memories. I was in the printing industry and the plant I ran printed most of the issues of the old MEN, up to around issue 100, if I remember correctly. I have almost all of those back issues. While we were producing the magazine I got friendly with many of the MEN people, including the owners.

Doug Rye is a consultant to our rural electric company. He is a proponent of cellulose insulation. Do a search on Doug Rye for more info on this.

Have fun hammering out the cellulose and making some good insulation. Keep us posted on your progress.

Clem

 

[dave1949]

When my daughter and family lived in northern Minnesota the place they bought had a saw mill the previous owners ran. The saw mill was gone but the house was built with it's wood AND the saw dust was used to insulate the house. We were there in early February one year when the outside temps were in the minus 40's, without wind chill factor. The only heat they used was a stove in the living room and we slept upstairs so heat rising was the only way to get heat up there. All 5 bedrooms upstairs never got below 66 degrees. Nice and cozy. The only concern I had was if it had been treated for fire protection. Wood is cellulose and paper is made from wood.
Clem

Interesting fact Clem. Also think how the old ice houses were insulated with sawdust. They used to cut ice here in Maine during winter and sell it all summer in NY City - many years ago of course.
Dave.

 

[charlz]

I think lead in newspaper ink wasn't banned until 1985... so might want to research that and be informed. Might be more of an issue when shredding/handling than after it is blown in.

What is the cost of the chemicals they list in the article? Does it work out to be significantly cheaper than just buying the stuff? There are tax breaks etc. but I think you have to have some kind of receipt showing you purchased the stuff.

 

[GPintheMitten]

I would be concerned about mold and mildew. I think it might be carrying diy a little too far. DIY the project but buy the insulation.

And take the old newspaper and cardboard to someplace that recycles it. The savings for making it was not enough in my opinion and you have no quality control or testing and research on your own ability to uniformly make it fireproof and vermin resistant.

I understand that Mother did some fire testing but I would not bet my life on it or my own ability to get it right in order to save a couple of hundred dollars.

And it might not consume enough old newspapers to eliminate the disposal need anyway.

 

[EddieWalker]

I've worked on a few older homes that had paper products that were used as insulation, and in every case, it was all settled down to the bottom of the wall cavity, or fire block. Those homes didn't have romex wire either, it was that older style wire with the fabrick wrap aroudn the wires. I didn't see all of the wall cavities, just the bathroom walls that I was remodeling. In those walls, the wire was above the newspaper shreds that had settled, but I really wondered how easy it would have been for a fire to start if they wires had been chewed by rodents or a spark happend at a junctoion box. I never seen an sign of it, but it sure looked like a good place for a fire to start.

The blown in insulation that I'm using now, and sold at the box stores, has just about everything mixed into it. I've seen parts of plastic bags come flying out the hose, as well as what looks like wool, fiberglass and wood. I have no idea what's in there, but in the attics that I've done and been back to, I don't see any sign of settling in over four years.

For wall cavities, fiberglass or foam are the only two options that make any sense. If there is nothing in the existing walls, I'd remove the sheetrock and do it right before blowing into the walls. For every success story on that working out, there is a horror story about the walls bulging, the patches remaining visable and the insulation not improving the energy bill by a noticable amount.

I don't believe it is possible to create your own insualtion that would even come close to being comparable to what you can buy. I also don't think there is a monetary savings in makeing your own insulation.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[BHD]

I've worked on a few older homes that had paper products that were used as insulation, and in every case, it was all settled down to the bottom of the wall cavity, or fire block. Those homes didn't have romex wire either, it was that older style wire with the fabrick wrap around the wires. I didn't see all of the wall cavities, just the bathroom walls that I was remodeling. In those walls, the wire was above the newspaper shreds that had settled, but I really wondered how easy it would have been for a fire to start if they wires had been chewed by rodents or a spark happened at a junction box. I never seen an sign of it, but it sure looked like a good place for a fire to start.

The blown in insulation that I'm using now, and sold at the box stores, has just about everything mixed into it. I've seen parts of plastic bags come flying out the hose, as well as what looks like wool, fiberglass and wood. I have no idea what's in there, but in the attics that I've done and been back to, I don't see any sign of settling in over four years.


I don't believe it is possible to create your own insulation that would even come close to being comparable to what you can buy. I also don't think there is a monetary savings in making your own insulation.

Good luck,
Eddie

yes there are problems with blown in insulations,
and one of the old problems was the settling issues,

when I first blew insulation in a house it was the hammer milled type not the newer fiberized products, (it was about the time that artical was writen),

I do think the newer "fiberization" process, is better than the hammer mill process, (not exactly what the operational difference is in the manufacturing of the product),

but methods of installing the blown in is much improved from the early days,
at one time they just drilled a 2" or 3" hole at the top of the wall cavity and blew until it stopped, there was little or no compaction an possibly even a void at the bottom of the wall cavity with that method,

now it is suggested to drill at least two holes one at mid level and one at about foot from the top, and then use a reducing nozzle and blow, (one you have a air relief hole, and two your compacting, or taking the "settling" room out of the insulation, with the smaller holes it is much easer to plug and have the holes disappear with some proper gluing and sanding and painting of the siding, (or removal of the siding and then replacement of it),

also the loose blown fiberglass compresses in attics and the like as well,

one two other advantages of celouse over fiberglass, one is the blocking of air flow, fiberglass does not stop air infiltration or air leakage if it exists, In older homes it exists. (in my barn I put a room in it, insulated with bat fiber glass, could not keep it warm, tore it out and blew in cellouse and can now heat the room with reasonable ease), the wind just blew threw the old barn siding,

and the fire retardation effects of celouse is much greater than fiberglass, fiberglass has no mass, and will melt with nearly any flame that reaches it, celouse has mass, and takes time to burn through it, the difference is much like the comparison of burning a tissue paper or a phone book,

as far as an electrical fire, If your wiring is so hot as to start paper on fire, then you have a problem, (not that it is recommended but knob and tube is bare wire many times and much of it has been covered by insulations, Not saying it can not happen, but cellouse is normally an insulator, and unless it is conducting electric there is little reason for it. and if the insulation is wet then you have more problems than the type of insulation one chose to use,


now agreed is making my own a worth while adventure I do not know,
but disposal of the old paper and boxes will be a job, and probably have a cost to it as well,
not really trying to save on buying insulation, (but money is tight) but trying to use what is avaiable to make the best use of resources, there is one building that is nearly 3 foot deep in news papers on the place about 15' x15', and that is not counting the house and some of the other buildings, and the card board boxes reach the ceilings in some rooms, and most are full of some type of paper products,

I have not decided to do or try the idea, or not to do as of yet, but thank you all for your input,

 

[Mace Canute]

Cellulose seems to be the better product hands down but I am not sure if it is your best interests to "make you own". Would your insurance company require you to use a "commercial" product? What about building codes? Resale value of the house with "home made" versus "commercial" insulation? I would suggest you look at it not from a technical point of view but from a legal point of view. Just saying...

From About Saving Heat Cellulose Insulation
"Cellulose insulation is the only wood-based building material that is always treated with fire retardant. One hundred pounds of cellulose insulation contains 80 to 85 pounds of recycled newsprint. The remainder is made up of Borax and Boric acid, both non-toxic fire retardants."

Also from http://www.cellulose.org/userdocs/TechnicalSpecifications/CIMA-TechnicalBulletin01.pdf
"The minimum legal requirement for cellulose insulation is the CPSC standard, which covers four product attributes, critical radiant flux, smoldering combustion, corrosiveness, and settled density.
The CPSC standard adequately addresses safety issues, but safety -- important as it is -- is only one factor in insulation performance. The standard for loose-fill cellulose insulation accepted by the insulation industry is ASTM C-739, which provides tests for R-value, odor, moisture vapor sorption, and fungi resistance, as well as critical radiant flux, smoldering combustion, corrosive-ness, and settled density, the attributes covered by CPSC standard"

 

[BHD]

Just for the information, I have basically given up on the idea,
watched some videos on how it is manufactured, and it is not that I really do not have the equipment to do it but, after doing some cost estimates, of the chemicals, (shipping is as much the potential problem as the cost of the product in smaller amounts,

any way I figured the cost would be in the 1/3 to 1/2 of the cost of the purchased product, the house would take about $900 of manufactured product, (I remember before they changed to the "fiberization process" and just the hammer mill, it took more product as the product was not as fluffed, the house would take about (manufactured) 1800 pounds of product, I figured home made it may be closer to 2000 and possibly up to 2500, which raises the chemical cost as the manufactured product is 85 pounds paper and 15 pounds chemicals, (the two basic are a boric acid, ammonium sulfate and appear to be about 50% each) (from MDS sheets) not exceeding 10% by weight of the boric acid or 11% of the ammonium sulfate. the ammonium sulfate is used as a fertilizer, so the cost would not be that great but the boric acid is where I was getting costs as shipping would be as much or more than the product most likely, Using borax would still be close to $1 a pound if bought as laundry product from a store, and it is not completely boric acid, but looks like it was used as a fire retardant,

the process would be to coarse grind the paper, put in a mixer, and mix the paper with the chemicals, and then regrind, the grinding beats the chemicals into the paper,

I have two hammer mills, I could set up, and have a old tank I could probably make into a mixer, but the work and the set up coast would out weigh the savings on the house were looking at to do, now if one was to batch mix and regrind using the same grinder, some set up costs could be realized, but the efficiency of of the process would suffer,
the biggest working problem would be the mixing chamber, (I think I would consider some type of batch unit so the regulation of the chemicals could be better regulated,
weigh X amount of paper, coarse grind, add chemical, mix and then fine grind.
But not knowing how much the mixer would efficiently mix and feed out that may only be in batches of 50 pounds or so.


If the cost of the product was more or I have a few places to do I may consider this in more depth, but I am guessing to make the mills properly driven, and to build and change the tank into an effective mixer, would cost as much or more than the proposed savings,
(If I could drastily cut the chemical costs I may reconsider the process), but I would say the chemical cost would have to be near 10% of manufactured product to even consider or the project much larger in size to be able).
but I want to thank all for there thoughts and ideas, to the process,