Mining Agreements

[NorTracNY]

I am in the process of buying land with a large house and barn. We knew of a mine in the adjacent property and didn't have any concerns as it's far enough from the house and it didn't appear too active. It was clear that the adjacent property had split from the property I'm purchasing. The property line follows the slight turns of the road they use. The mine is for just sand and gravel. We questioned both the owner and realtor regarding the mining. Despite NY requiring property disclosures and both the owner and realtor saying the mine was only on the adjacent land AND the disclosure saying mineral rights were being transferred. We have now learned that there are 11 acres of our place where we don't have the mineral rights.

The owner of the mine is looking to get a 5 year permit renewal with the DEC. The current owner won't sign and he's coming to us since we are in the process of becoming the owners. We have contacted the DEC and they have been very helpful. They are indicating that the mine owner may not be fully transparent with us. The signature that he's looking for says that we have reviewed the mining plan, but the mine owner won't show it to us. We are not opposed to having an agreement with the mine owner, but we aren't going to be rushed into this. It's not even clear what 11 acres of our land we are talking about.

My question is, does anyone have experience negotiating a mining agreement like this? What do we need to make sure is covered? Anyone familiar with what the value of this could be?

 

[Quaffer]

They want you to sign an agreement affirming that you have read and reviewed documents they will not provide?

This isn't difficult ....

 

[RjCorazza]

^^^^ That would be a hard NO to sign anything
Being the keyboard expert that I am (not), I would think expert representation would be in order.
An open pit sand / gravel operation would be intolerable to me... Trucks, excavators, blasting, dust, people, traffic.
Best of luck to you.

 

[MH8675309]

You dont have to go through with the purchase. Mineral rights not being included in the sale is no minor detail. They may exercise their right to mine the gravel out with you not being able to have a say in it. Not disclosing leased or sold mineral rights or making false statement concerning them amounts to fraud at the least and there is also a dollar amount for those leases whether they are used or not. You could always renegotiate for a lower price. Keep both eyes open

 

[NorTracNY]

Thank you for the replies. I left out that we CLEARLY will not be signing at this time. The individual at the DEC made it clear we should not be signing at this time.

I recognize that the sellers and realtor are being unethical (I've never met a realtor who is ethical) and it could allow us to get out of the deal. Our current understanding is that they won't be able to get their permit renewed without our signature.

I'm really interested to hear from people who have experience with mining on their property and what to consider with any lease. Time of operation, length of time to land renewal, etc...

 

[nyone]

Haven't even closed yet and already res flags. Don't close until its all figured out.

I wouldnt buy any land with out mineral rights much less with out mineral rights and a quarry right next door. No way no how.

I also own land in NY.

 

[nyone]

Thank you for the replies. I left out that we CLEARLY will not be signing at this time. The individual at the DEC made it clear we should not be signing at this time.

I recognize that the sellers and realtor are being unethical (I've never met a realtor who is ethical) and it could allow us to get out of the deal. Our current understanding is that they won't be able to get their permit renewed without our signature.

I'm really interested to hear from people who have experience with mining on their property and what to consider with any lease. Time of operation, length of time to land renewal, etc...

I believe any permit with the DEC would have a Tonage listed on the permit. This is the amount of material they can remove. That dosnt mean its the only material they move though.

 

[NorTracNY]

We certainly will figure this out before closing. We currently have many options on how to handle this. The amount of land which could be mined is a small fraction of what we are buying and it is away from the house. There are still concerns, but we are seeing if we can work through them. I'd rather not walk away, but sue for our costs due to non-disclosure. It could happen, but I'd rather not.

 

[oosik]

You hold the hammer - keep a firm grip until all concerns are cleared to your satisfaction. A small but, perhaps, important point. I,also, suggest you seek legal advice on this entire matter.

You indicate the area to be mined is ten acres. You indicate it's exact location is UKN. But it's not near the house. You are pretty sure about this - ??? You DO want to know the exact limits of this ten acres and exactly where it is. Definitive location specifically outlined on a legal and recorded document.

 

[Alan W.]

Just because the law says they need your signature now doesn’t mean that wont change in the future. That land and their access to it will always be something to worry about.
For all intents you might as well say those acres they hold mineral rights to are theirs.

 

[oosik]

Interesting - Alan W. Most all the land around here was initially given by the Federal government as land grants in the 1890's. It was granted with the idea - "Look for oil". So...since my 80 acres is a portion of an original grant - I have oil rights on this land - along with the mineral rights.

It was a good/legitimate reason to grant land - I guess. NOBODY has ever drilled for oil around here. There is more oil in the suntan lotion I apply in the summer than will ever be found on this land. And as far as mineral rights - gravel can be found in specific locations - if you are fortunate.

What most look for - enough dirt over the basaltic lava bedrock to farm or build a house with a well and septic system. Most are into open range raising of cattle.

Water can be a premium - fall wildfires are the curse.

 

[NorTracNY]

Yes, we are working with an attorney. There are conflicting wording/documents regarding the location of the 11 acres. The wording is VERY vague in those two documents. The mining permit should have the clearest language, and we have not yet seen that. Yes, we are in control at this point since we have been given clear guidance. Again, we are not completely opposed to having them mine part of our land, but there will need to be clear agreements written up by attorneys. Just hoping someone here has experience with this.