MT225S cold start question

[Phantom06]

Purchased my MT a few weeks ago. Now that it's getting colder, I had a few questions on cold weather starts. This is my first tractor so no prior experience with diesels.

The manual is very light on info. "start the engine after operating the cold start aid indicator sufficiently"

Given the above 'procedure', I'm hoping someone can give me some practical guidance.

1. How long should I keep the key turned to pre-heat the GPs in 20-degree temps?

2. With the key turned to pre-heat, should the GP element indicator on the dash remain lit up the entire time? On mine, the indicator lights up for a second then goes out. The rest of the panel does the same self-check as when the key is in the normal 'On' position. I'm adding this as a co-worker has an XJ and he says his indicator stays lit up the entire time he has the key turned to the cold start position

I've had the key to cold start for a long 5-second count. Tractor starts rough with a big belch of smoke. Settles to a smooth idle in about 5 seconds

We're coming into colder NH weather so I want to get the start procedure down. Tractor is in an unheated garage. I do not have any heaters (block, etc) installed yet

Thanks

 

[oosik]

It sound like you are following the correct procedure. The "internals" of your tractor should determine the ambient temperature and keep the GP's on long enough to ensure a safe startup.

When I start my tractor cold - run the throttle up to full, then back to just above idle. Turn the key to "glow plug" - wait for the little illuminated coil to go out - turn the key over to start.

Yes - it coughs, grunts, belches, blows grey smoke - runs just fine after about 4 to 5 second of the previous. The only "aide" on my Kubota - a battery tender.

If your GP indicator light only stays on a second - it's not really that cold outside.

 

[Bobrown14]

Sometimes I turn the key on let the glow plug light go on then off and do it a 2nd time right away then crank the engine. But yeah wait for the coil light to go out before start up.

 

[Avenger]

(I'm sorry for the long post. As many of you know, I went down this road last winter. Check my YT channel for more info)

A few things here. First, like oosik stated, you're doing everything correctly. Turn the key on, wait for the light to go out, turn the key to start.

However,

There are things you can do to eliminate extra wear and tear, and reduce those cold starts.

First, lets take a look at what the computer is doing inside your engine before startup. The computer determines how long to run the glow plugs based on the coolant temp. If its cold, it runs them longer. If the coolant is warm (like on a 70 degree day, or after the tractor has run for a while) it barely fires the glow plugs if at all. The glow plugs warm the air inside the cylinders to assist in the initial compression ignition. Diesels don't have spark plugs like a gas motor. They relay on compression to create enough heat to combust the fuel. When the cylinder is cold, there simply is not enough heat. You can cycle the glow plugs a few times, to get the cylinders warmer. Note that the glow plugs are only active if the light is illuminated on the dash.

So, what we can do? Engine block heaters.

Now, to some, this is simply silly talk. Why would anyone want to add an engine heater if the engine has a heater built in that is computer controlled? Because the glow plugs only warm the air, for a very short period of time, to prevent the glow plugs from wearing out too quickly. There are other aspects of the engine that will benefit from being warmed besides the combustion cylinders. Like the oil.

There are three main types of engine block heaters

1) A lower radiator hose heater, that heats the coolant up and though the magic of convection, cycles the coolant though the engine... and radiator. Radiators are designed to cool the coolant, but the heater does have a marked effect on the engine block. The warmer coolant flows, very slowly, though the water jackets that surround the cylinders, thus warming them.

2) A magnetic oil pan heater. These are also sometimes pads that stick on. I haven't had any success with the pads, the one I tried wouldn't stick. I cleaned and cleaned the oil and dirt off the oil pan, but it never did stick. Your mileage may vary. But the magnetic version works, and works well. It simply sticks to the oil pan and warms the oil. Once the tractor is running, simply remove the magnet. However, on these tractors (and many like them) the oil pan is split. So one side will get warm while the other side is not. Is this a big deal? Not really. The oil is warming. Why do we need to warm the oil? Warming the oil is necessary before cold start to make sure its not too viscous. This aids in the flow of the oil to lubricate the necessary moving parts in the engine at startup quicker. Be sure to be running the correct weight of oil for the temperature your in. This is probably more important. The magnetic heater also aids in warming the block, as heat rises.

3) Freeze Plug Heater. These little heaters replace a freeze plug on the side of the engine block. They are probably the most efficient form of engine heater, as they heat the coolant directly next to the cylinder walls. No cycling of the water is necessary. These types of heaters are not difficult to install, however, getting to the freeze plugs may mean removing parts of the engine temporarily, which could make for a longer install.

With these heaters, your cold starts will almost go away. However, with the heaters that warm the coolant, you will notice the glow plugs not firing for very long. This is because of that computer monitoring the coolant temps. Simply cycle the glow plugs a few times. There is no magic bullet to prevent all cold starts. I plug my tractor into a lower radiator hose heater, a magnetic block heater, and a battery tender every time I park in the winter. When I start my tractor cold, I cycle the glow plugs a few times, and then turn it over. Even in the freezing depths winter, the tractor fires right up.

After startup, let your engine idle for a few minutes, then crank 'er up to about 1500RPM for several minutes, like 30, to make sure the engine is warm before doing work.

 

[Avenger]

2. With the key turned to pre-heat, should the GP element indicator on the dash remain lit up the entire time? On mine, the indicator lights up for a second then goes out. The rest of the panel does the same self-check as when the key is in the normal 'On' position. I'm adding this as a co-worker has an XJ and he says his indicator stays lit up the entire time he has the key turned to the cold start position

On some tractors this is true. Turning the ignition to the left will activate the glow plugs as long as you hold it. On others, like yours and mine, its the same as turning the key to the 'on' position. The glow plugs are only active for a short period of time.

 

[oosik]

I've only ever used a lower radiator hose heater. That was when we lived in Alaska. And even then, only until I built a heated garage. Here in the Spokane area it seldom gets that cold. AND if it does - I have to be convinced that it's really necessary to be outside, in the first place.

The last two years I never had to plow my mile long gravel driveway. Just not enough snow and it would be melting the day afterwards. We haven't really had "normal" winter snows for quite a few years.

 

[Avenger]

Yeah, the winters here have been more mild in recent years. And probably a bit milder in southern Spokane area, in the lower altitudes. Where I'm at, we typically get about 2 feet of standing snow (currently about 4 inches), and it stays until March/April. Temps drop into the teens on average starting about January. Living in the mountains of Northern Spokane area, I have to plow the driveway, because if I dont, then I will slide, mostly often sideways, to the bottom. And getting up? Not happening.

 

[oosik]

Substantial local weather differences. I live 25 miles due SW of Spokane. I have exactly 1/2" of snow. I don't even consider plowing until I get 8" on the ground and it's still snowing. Not even a problem getting out with the Power Wagon( Taco Wagon ). My driveway is a mile long - gravel.

The biggest danger in these parts. Drive out to the county road. County road has not been plowed yet. Folks tend to drive right down the center. Just LOADS of fun .............

 

[Cycledude]

As others have said the glow plugs on the newer LS tractors are mostly controlled by the computer brainbox or whatever ever it’s called. When I turn on the key the glow plug light stays on varying amounts of time depending on temperature, on mine the glow plug light seems to stay on for about 10 seconds when it’s cold out, if the engine is warm the glow plug indicator light only comes on for about 1 second and I highly doubt the glow plugs get heated at all it’s just an indicator that the circuit should work if needed.
I do have a block heater and yesterday it was 20 degrees so I plugged it in for a couple hours before starting to plow my yard, the glow plug indicator only stayed on for about 1 second and the tractor started instantly.
My tractors are usually stored inside a building that’s not heated.

 

[jaydee325]

According to the MT225S owners manual you put the key switch in the On position. Then,
Wait until the cold start aid indicator is turned off. (for about 10 seconds). Sounds like there is a timed relay controlling the glow plugs or intake heater (as applicable).

This matches my R3039H as it takes about 10 seconds for the glow plugs to cycle. In really cold weather, I give it two cycles of glow plug heating and it does make a difference.

 

[Phantom06]

It was in the mid-20s here today. Turning the key to the ‘on’ position puts the cold start (GP) light on for about 1 second. Turning the key to the left and got the same result — on about 1 sec

I’m probably just mistakenly expecting the GP light to be on continuously when turning the key to the left. But why would this feature be present if it doesnt continuously heat the GP?

thanks to all for your responses. I’ll have a heated garage next year so just planning on how to best get thru this winter.

 

[PCABE5]

It was in the mid-20s here today. Turning the key to the ‘on’ position puts the cold start (GP) light on for about 1 second. Turning the key to the left and got the same result — on about 1 sec.

Sounds like you have an issue with the timer relay circuit. As stated above your tractor has a glow plug relay/timer circuit and it should stay on for about ten seconds regardless of the temperature. If you are under warranty let the dealership replace the parts.

 

[Phantom06]

Thanks for your reply

It's 25 degrees here, this morning. Went out and wanted better describe what occurs with my tractor

When I turn the key to the on position, the dash goes thru it's self-test (warning lights come on, fuel/temp gauges cycle, parking brake alarm cycles, GP light comes on for a second or so) which takes about 5 seconds or so to complete. I did not start the tractor

I went back an hour or so later. Turned the key to the left (cold start). Exactly the same thing as above. Same panel self-test. The GP light comes on for a second or so, then goes out.

My question: should the GP light remain illuminated when turning key to the cold start position? ie does this key position 'override' the computer to allow a longer preheat period?

Apologies for beating this to death

And yes, tractor is under warranty. I've only had it for about 2 weeks. No prior tractor experience (other than garden tractor/mower) and zero diesel experience

 

[rodneyn]

Thanks for your reply

It's 25 degrees here, this morning. Went out and wanted better describe what occurs with my tractor

When I turn the key to the on position, the dash goes thru it's self-test (warning lights come on, fuel/temp gauges cycle, parking brake alarm cycles, GP light comes on for a second or so) which takes about 5 seconds or so to complete. I did not start the tractor

I went back an hour or so later. Turned the key to the left (cold start). Exactly the same thing as above. Same panel self-test. The GP light comes on for a second or so, then goes out.

My question: should the GP light remain illuminated when turning key to the cold start position? ie does this key position 'override' the computer to allow a longer preheat period?

Apologies for beating this to death

And yes, tractor is under warranty. I've only had it for about 2 weeks. No prior tractor experience (other than garden tractor/mower) and zero diesel experience

I have MT225S since June 2020 - 230 hours later the glow plug light turn on for 5 seconds then if it’s cold outside the glow plug light will light as tractor is cranking. I do agree the tractor produces lot dark exhaust as it’s firing up. This diminishes 10 seconds after unit is running. Regarding you northern hemisphere owners make sure you are using at least 10-30 diesel oil CJ rated. Do not us 15-w40 in the colder zones of the world. The tractor even with trickle charger sucks many amps to get crankshaft spinning. Thicker oil is only tasking the starter harder with thick stiff oil. The MT225S is hearty tractor, robust and tough. No disappointments on my end. Wish I had one prior to 2020.

 

[Phantom06]

From my local dealer re: my coil/GP question

Hi Chris, you should see a coil light in the bottom right when you turn the key on, it should stay on for 15 to 30 seconds. If it just flashes on and turns off, they are not cycling properly, you can cycle the key on and off a few time to get enough heat to the plugs for an easier start. There's a known issue that was discovered last week where the ECM is not cycling the plug long enough. Unfortunately there's no manual override on the 225s. LS and Yanmar are working on a fix and I am working with our service rep for a temporary work around. I will keep you updated.

 

[kormidoit]

Thanks for your reply

It's 25 degrees here, this morning. Went out and wanted better describe what occurs with my tractor

When I turn the key to the on position, the dash goes thru it's self-test (warning lights come on, fuel/temp gauges cycle, parking brake alarm cycles, GP light comes on for a second or so) which takes about 5 seconds or so to complete. I did not start the tractor

I went back an hour or so later. Turned the key to the left (cold start). Exactly the same thing as above. Same panel self-test. The GP light comes on for a second or so, then goes out.

My question: should the GP light remain illuminated when turning key to the cold start position? ie does this key position 'override' the computer to allow a longer preheat period?

Apologies for beating this to death

And yes, tractor is under warranty. I've only had it for about 2 weeks. No prior tractor experience (other than garden tractor/mower) and zero diesel experience

My MT225S does the EXACT same thing....Absolutely gutless on cold starts. Does not matter what the key position is in. GP light is on for a second...thats it.

 

[Yjmoose]

I feel your pain. I have a mt225e. My glow plugs do cycle, I have checked with a test light. My tractor is a bear to start sub 32 degrees. I fought it all last winter and this year added a lower radiator hose heater. It pops right off if I plug it in for an hour before hand. But still, when it’s 28 degrees out I shouldn’t have to plan my tractor starts an hour early.
I am still under warranty so off to the dealer it went. They were sure it was going to be a weak battery (which I tested before taking it in) or a bad starter. It’s been there 10 days, the battery was fine but the starter was drawing too many amps so they ordered a new one. It warmed up here to around 60 degrees and they put the starter in but wanted to wait until it was cold to test it.
I didn’t have immediate needs for the tractor so I said sure keep it and test it. Now, a storm came through and blew down some trees and it has turned cold, so I called this morning to see how the tractor did and they said well, it’s not quite ready we need to check some more it started but was hard to start.
I would rather they figure it out now then send me a hard starting tractor home.
I will keep you posted what I find out.
Yjmoose

 

[kormidoit]

I feel your pain. I have a mt225e. My glow plugs do cycle, I have checked with a test light. My tractor is a bear to start sub 32 degrees. I fought it all last winter and this year added a lower radiator hose heater. It pops right off if I plug it in for an hour before hand. But still, when it’s 28 degrees out I shouldn’t have to plan my tractor starts an hour early.
I am still under warranty so off to the dealer it went. They were sure it was going to be a weak battery (which I tested before taking it in) or a bad starter. It’s been there 10 days, the battery was fine but the starter was drawing too many amps so they ordered a new one. It warmed up here to around 60 degrees and they put the starter in but wanted to wait until it was cold to test it.
I didn’t have immediate needs for the tractor so I said sure keep it and test it. Now, a storm came through and blew down some trees and it has turned cold, so I called this morning to see how the tractor did and they said well, it’s not quite ready we need to check some more it started but was hard to start.
I would rather they figure it out now then send me a hard starting tractor home.
I will keep you posted what I find out.
Yjmoose

So this morning it was 9 or 11 degrees...depends on whose phone ur looking at....I have been cycling the glow plugs by turning the key to the Left 3 times....then to the Right, waiting for the GP light to go off each time....and she fires right up. So for the 225S drivers out there....try that and see if it makes a difference.

 

[Yjmoose]

Update from my dealer is that they can’t find the problem. When it’s cold it doesn’t want to start. He has had it three weeks, they are working with a regional rep now.
He told me today that my tractor was hard to start this morning, the XG sitting next to it with the same exact engine started right up. Got our first snow here, but the 4wheeler should handle it.

yjmoose.

 

[Yjmoose]

Another update from me. I picked my tractor up today. That’s right, been at the dealer since mid December, it’s Feb 10th today.
It still starts the same. No improvement.
below 32 degrees and it better be plugged in. They replaced the battery, the battery cables, checked all the glow plugs and related relays and timers, the starter, and even replaced a governor that LS thought might be the problem.
still won’t start unless plugged in below 32 degrees, so I guess in the end that is my answer.
Wish I had better news.
At least my Barn where it’s parked has electricity.
Yjmoose.