Need hydraulic advice

Tig · Mar 18, 2007

I am adding rear remotes and top & tilt to my B7100. I have been reading the remote and top & tilt threads for months.
I have also been watching the Princess Auto sale flyer all winter and have picked up a cylinder for my toplink and a pair of DPOCVs.
With sping on my doorstep it's time to build. The first reality I face is that my tractor is small. There is not a lot of room to mount all this stuff. I have my eye on a small 2 spool valve. It is open center but does not have power beyond. Can I use this if it is the last valve in the circuit, or is power beyond a must in all circumstances?
Maybe the question I should be asking is, why is an unused power beyond port returned to the pressure block instead of just being plugged?
Thanks.

MadReferee · Mar 18, 2007

Tig said:
I am adding rear remotes and top & tilt to my B7100. I have been reading the remote and top & tilt threads for months.
I have also been watching the Princess Auto sale flyer all winter and have picked up a cylinder for my toplink and a pair of DPOCVs.
With sping on my doorstep it's time to build. The first reality I face is that my tractor is small. There is not a lot of room to mount all this stuff. I have my eye on a small 2 spool valve. It is open center but does not have power beyond. Can I use this if it is the last valve in the circuit, or is power beyond a must in all circumstances?
Maybe the question I should be asking is, why is an unused power beyond port returned to the pressure block instead of just being plugged?
Thanks.

Sure you can use the valve if it's the last valve in the circuit but isn't your 3pt the last valve? If you install a valve that is not configured for power beyond then all valves that are after it in the circuit cannot be operated efficiently, if at all, simultaneously with the valve before it. Valves not configured for power beyond dump the neutral pressure exhaust fluid from the work ports back into the main circuit instead of straight to the tank.

As to your last question, I guess I don't quite understand what you are asking. On a valve that is configured for power beyond, the neutral pressure exhaust fluid from the work ports is sent to the transmission tank/sump via the tank return outlet port. The other outlet port is the power beyond port. This port has a direct connection to the inlet port when all spools are in neutral and will allow any unused fluid to pass thru when a spool is not in neutral.

If the valve is configurable for PB, but not configured for PB then the PB sleeve is removed and the PB port and the tank port are effectively one and the same, so one is plugged.

Tig · Mar 18, 2007

Thanks Mad,
You are most likely right. The pressure block I refered to is called a hydraulic block in the manual. I figured that it was like a manifold. A line comes from the pump to the block and then from the block to the loader valve. The PB port of the loader valve goes back to this block and a solid line runs from the block to the TPH. If it's like you say the block must have two chambers. Looks like I'll have to go with a PB valve and then put it in the circuit between the loader valve and the hydraulic block. This is not going to be very tidy running lines back and forth past the hydro pedals.

MadReferee · Mar 19, 2007

The hydraulic block is simply a break in the main series pressure circuit with a connection for each end of the cut. The pressure side of the cut/block goes to the valve inlet. The other side of the cut/block connects to the power beyond outlet of the valve and eventually goes to the 3pt. This puts your new valve in series with the main circuit.

Tig · Mar 19, 2007

Thanks again Mad Referee. I guess I should follow that example and try to put a similar block in the line before it gets to the TPH. It would be the tidiest way to supply the rear remotes.
I'd like to mount the check valves to the cylinders and connect them via hardline. I'd also like to mount the quick disconnects to the same plate as the spool valve and connect them via hardline.
Which leads me to my next question. Are JIC 37* connectors the only option when working with hard lines?
Thanks.

jimgerken · Mar 20, 2007

Can't answer your question BUT I will add this: PLEASE do yourself a favor and add three hydraulic circuits, not two. If you do three, two are consumed by your TnT, leaving one more available for useage. If you add two, you will be looking to add another one soon. Plan ahead now. Thank me later.

Tig · Mar 20, 2007

Thanks Jim
I've read that in a few threads and I did think about it, but space is tight and I can't imagine what I would use the third remote for. I sort of talked myself out of it. The tractor will be used for snowblowing, box blading and road grading.
Now you've got me thinking again.

What would I use the third remote for?

Tig · Mar 27, 2007

Ok, I've got my hard lines sorted out. In my head anyways. I found that my local supplier can make the lines for me. I'm going to use hard lines to mount the check vavles to the cylinders and also to connect the spool valve to the quick disconnects. I'm also going to use the hardline that now goes to the TPH to supply my spool valve and then run a line back to the TPH banjo fitting.
The B710 just over 1700 PSI and 3.1 gpm flow. I'd like to slow the cylinders down, way down. 1/3 gpm flow will give me about 5 seconds to extend my 4" side cylinder. In my limited knowledge of hydraulics I'm concerned about this will be almost a deadhead and could damage the pump during use. Can the relief valve be set low allow bypass and protect the pump? Or should any of this even be a concern?
If restricting is an option, is a needle valve the way to go? Surplus Center Item Detail
Thanks for your help.

MadReferee · Mar 27, 2007

Use 1/4" hoses from the valve work ports to the cylinders. That should give you enough restriction to be able to feather the cylinder movement. If it's not then go to a restrictor in the line. Usually 1/4" hoses does the trick.

I wouldn't worry about the pump deadheading because of minimal flow. However I would make sure that the pressure relief for the system and the valve (if it has one) arew set correctly based on whatever the maximum pressure is for your system. If the pressure setting on the relief is exceeded it will bypass, that's its job.

tlbuser · Mar 27, 2007

Tig said:
Thanks Jim
I can't imagine what I would use the third remote for. Now you've got me thinking again. What would I use the third remote for?

A dump trailer comes to mind

jimgerken · Mar 28, 2007

Tig said:
Thanks Jim
I've read that in a few threads and I did think about it, but space is tight and I can't imagine what I would use the third remote for. I sort of talked myself out of it. The tractor will be used for snowblowing, box blading and road grading.
Now you've got me thinking again. What would I use the third remote for?

The nicest gravel road or driveway implement, in my opinion, is the landscape rake (some guys may disagree, but it works great for me). My own rake is now equipped with a hyd cyl to swing it side to side, to grade the material to the left or right. In addition to the Top and Tilt (tilt very important to grading roads and trails), this makes three hyd circuits needed. I have two , so now I am adding a selector to my top link cyl, along with a couple more couplers. Its not as nice as it would be had I put on three circuits to begin with. But it will work out ok.
Some guys have hyd scarifiers on a box blade. That seems like a great deal.
A wood splitter would be another one.
A hydraulic spout rotator or spout deflector on a snowblower is another example.
The third remote REALLY gets important if/when you discover the quick-hitch option. Speeco makes a nice Cat 1 Q.H., just the right size for compacts. Once your implements are set up properly (one of mine worked as-is, the others had to be modified slightly, like drilling a hole, one needed welding, one just a bolt-on bushing), you can switch without getting off the seat. Its the absolute greatest. It does almost require a top cylinder though, to get the angle right each hook-up. And its nice to adjust the top link for the job of course. Top And Tilt use two, you need one more for the actual implement. After installing TnT, and a Quick hitch, its almost as-if you didn't have ANY available hyd circuits installed, since both the ones you added are consumed by stuff that's on the tractor all the time. Three is the right number (in addition to the two you have already from the loader joystick of course).
Maybe next week I will have some pics of my "finished" setup.

Tig · Mar 28, 2007

Thanks MadReferee. I'll try that.
As for the dump trailer etc I'll just have to disconnect the tnt to operate it. I accept the compromise of simplicity vs functionality.

Tig · Mar 28, 2007

Jim, I'd love to see pics of your setup. I've been looking at all I can find at TBN. Right now it's hard to make progress while I hmm and haw about the arrangement of the components. I finally made a decision about the design of the mounting bracket and started making it last night. Tonight I'll finish that and then start mounting components. I'm off Thursday and Friday so with any luck I'll get that done and the hard lines too.

3RRL · Apr 3, 2007

Tig,
What kind of DPOCV's did you get? Where did you get them and how much were they? Can you post a photo of them?
Thanks,

jimgerken · Apr 4, 2007

TIG, I started a new thread showing my setup. The thread is called something like " Quick-attached Landscape Rake with Top-n-Tilt-n-Swivel ! " and it is under Build it Yourself.

Tig · Apr 23, 2007

Hi 3RRL, sorry I have not checked this thread. I got real busy welding and assembling. I got the DPOCV's onsale at princess auto last January. PRINCESS AUTO End of line 19.99 each. The tractor is 3 hours away as of last weekend. I'll post what pics I have and I'll get some close ups next week end.
I'll check your thread Jim.

3RRL · Apr 23, 2007

TIG,
When you get a chance, could you post the catalog or item number at that link? I searched for DPOCV, the pilot operated check valves, the check valves and returned nothing. Just concerned because $19.99 is a heck of steal on those. Are they the right ones (DPOCV) with a good cracking pressure rating for sure?
Thanks,

Tig · Apr 24, 2007

Rob, the item number on the receipt is 8135527 and it is a DPOCV made by these guys. Blb hydraulic - Home - What Blb is I bought them Oct 31st and I got the last two at the Ottawa store. There may be more at the main warehouse where they fill the online orders. Later I had to go back to ask what type of fitting I needed and the clerk looked it up and mentioned that they were discontinued. Being a newbie to hydraulics, I never thought to ask about the cracking pressure. At that price I kind of assumed it's not top of the line.

but should work fine on my small tractor. By the way Rob, thank you for your T&T thread I referred to it quite a bit while I was planing my T&T.

Tig · Apr 24, 2007

I ran out of time to fiddle with the remotes and T&T because I had to assemble and use it last weekend. Initially I wasn't completely satisfied with some of the details and was going to fix them before posting pics. After thinking about it for a bit I realized that I could contribute more by showing what I tried and wasn't happy with.
Because space is limited on the back of a B7100 I tried to create a bracket where I could mount the spool and the remotes. I figured this way I could use steel lines to create a tidy setup.
Here is part of the bracket.

It runs right across the back of the tractor and bolts onto the fenders where the flasher lights used to be. The lights are relocated to the bracket. I have room for two more QDs. I plan to feed them off the TPH selector valve, perhaps to power a wood splitter.
Next you can see how the steel lines turned out. Not quite tidy like I had hoped. In time I may replace two lines for the rear spool with hoses to clean that up. For now it worked fine even when the lines warmed up a bit.

The steel lines that mount the check valves aren't quite what I had in mind either, but since Princess Auto bends and flares for free (they just charge for the steel line) I figured I got my money's worth. Functionally there is no problem using them and the center link lines don't get bumped as long as I have something on the TPH, so they won't change any time soon. Painting the cylinders was also postponed. My tractor has about 3.7GPM and 1700PSI in the hydraulic system. I used 1.5" cylinders and 1/4" flex lines to the 3/8" QDs. I can feather the cylinders nicely.
I had to limit the upward travel of the TPH to avoid clearance problems with the center link hoses.

Finally, here is a picture my wife took of me going off to play, errrr, I mean work.

In closing I'd like to thank our departed friend MadReferee for his generous advice, as well as thank everyone who posts their projects and offers thoughts and advice. I used as much of your experience and advice as I could. As I learn to use the T&T I am thrilled with how well it works. Friends and family were all very impressed with what I have built so let's keep it a secret that I only copied what I saw here as best I could.

If you have any further thoughts or questions let me know. I'd be happy to hear them.