Neighbors wall colapsed (twice)

   / Neighbors wall colapsed (twice) #1  

Paul_in_CT

Bronze Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2001
Messages
94
Location
Connecticut
Tractor
Kubota B2910
My neighbor is having a stone wall built (out of the paver stones). They are using the type with pins (grinell I think). This is the second time the wall has failed (different areas). The wall is about 5 feet high and at least 50 feet long. The wall has a set od steps built into it. They built it at the base of an existing hill and then backfilled it. That is when the first blowout occurred. They were using a bobcat (776 series I think) to backfill . They didnt use a compactor or wet the dirt as they were doing it. It was 2 thirds complete when he turned the skidsteer and it dug in and blew the wall out. The second time happened today we had heavy rains and a different section collapsed. My neightbor has been wetting the backfill for a week now (went down quite a bit). The current opinion is that the dirt settled and collapsed the wall. I think it is hydraulic pressure. I dont think the water is draining fast enough and building up against the wall. He did put a perf pipe in with gravel but the gravel doesnt seem to come all the way up the back of the wall. Any ideas ? I'm surfing now ,looking for some the different paver manufacturers specs.
Thanks
 
   / Neighbors wall colapsed (twice) #2  
My walls all have pipe running through the wall every few feet to let water flow from behind the walls. I don't know if thet is the secret or not. The guy that built them was kind of paranoid - there is 8" block from 4' below grade all the way up and then stone layed on the outside of that.
 
   / Neighbors wall colapsed (twice) #3  
If the wall is vertical pore pressure can definetly force it out. So could the freeze/thaw cycle. Most such retaining walls will be sloped into the hill with numerous drainage pipes installed. There should also be lateral support walls going into the hill. Backfilling the wall from the hill side is also not the best idea.
I'm not familiar with the type of paver he used but there are concrete blocks designed for just such purposes. Best drive around and look at how the highways install retaining walls and follow that example. Otherwise call Soundguy and have him design one.
Egon
 
   / Neighbors wall colapsed (twice) #4  
I have built a lot of walls in my time, and once they get over about 2 feet high you MUST have some kind of "dead man" running back into grade to hold the wall in place. Egon mentioned lateral support and he is absolutly correct. This can be either a butress in front of the wall or structure running back into the grade, but it is a MUST. The only proper way to construct a wall of the hight you describe from blocks is to "lean" the wall into the grade (ie not verticle) and tie all the blocks togeather so they act as one structure. The footer must also go well down into undisturbed earth below the wall, and must reach below the frost line.
 
   / Neighbors wall colapsed (twice) #5  
Some of the cement block sites, <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.allanblock.com/ab/ab.htm>Allan Block</A> for example, suggest using a fabric mesh to be entrapped between the layers of block and extend into the earth.
 
   / Neighbors wall colapsed (twice) #6  
Well I don't know. The fabric must work in some applications or they would not recommend its use. I have never used it. I did notice that none of the walls pictured on their website were not vertical, they all lean into the grade.

The problem here is that a block wall depends very much on simple mass to work. The earth backfill is almost always going to have more mass than the wall, and as it moves it will push out against the wall. Time and pressure are on the side of the moving earth working against the wall. Proper drainage helps but as the earth settles it will always apply force against the wall.

Somehow you have to provide sufficient structural strength or enough mass in the wall to exceed this pressure. While I have seen a number of block walls that exceed 5 feet in height, there is always a lot of effort put into stabilizing the earth behind the wall prior to construction. I have even seen cement added to the backfill to solidify it.

Take the worst case – a timber wall. The wood has nothing near the mass of the earth it contains, so how do they work. Well, about every 2 feet of height requires installation of a “dead man” running back into the slope at intervals along the length of the wall to tie the wall into the slope (hopefully into undisturbed earth). As the pressure against the wall builds over time the outward pressure is offset by the resistance of the dead man. In some cases you can even install a cross piece on the dead man to increase it’s holding power.

Adding this kind of structure is easier with a timber wall than a block wall. With a block wall, there are ways to add similar structure but you have to be more creative. For example, you could run rods back into the slope with plates on both ends. One end ties to the wall, the other into the slope.

The problem here is that it does no good to anchor the wall into the fill you are trying to hold in place. The anchor will simply move and the wall fails.

That is why the recommended procedure is to add buttress supports at intervals. These can run back into the slope or be place in front of the wall. I have also seen walls that were built containing a number of angles in them to provide this same kind of support. But you have to do something.

IMHO block walls are best used to hold sand and lighter soils in place at reasonable heights. Heavier soils, hydric soils and taller walls require a different approach.

Now the wall that was the source of the original question here could be built in steps. Go up 4 courses and then move back into the slope a few feet and go up again, until the desired height is reached. I have had great success with this approach and it make for a great series of planter boxes where deep rooted plants can be used to help hold the earth in place.
 
   / Neighbors wall colapsed (twice)
  • Thread Starter
#7  
Thanks for the replies / info guys. I have passed it along. I took a couple of photos of the wall. With regular film (so you will have to wait until I get them developed). The contractor was working over there yesterday but I havent had a chance to go and see the progress
 
   / Neighbors wall colapsed (twice) #8  
I can't wait to see the pictures. How does the neighbor feel about starting the project over, or does he know yet?/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

I hope you are on the uphill side of the wall.
 

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