New Gravel Drive failed

[Airic]

I put in a new gravel turn around this past spring and all was good up till yesterday. All during the year it appeared to be draining good and very well packed up till we had a bit of a warm spell yesterday. I went almost 6 months with lots of traffic on the drive and plenty of very wet conditions and just like that, now its mush (now frozen mush). Building of the drive consisted of box blading down about 6" and laying in some large stone (I believe it was used 52's) about 5" thick. I did not believe I would have any drainage issues. Before the drive was added we would just drive in the lawn in this very same spot and it was fine, no ruts nothing (very well packed). Now I'm in worse shape than before. In the spring I was planning on adding some #9 top stone but I think that has now changed to another load of 52's. Where do you think I went wrong and what would you do to fix it. Is this a typical issue when the frost within the soil melts and I assume there is an excessive amount of water trapped?

And to think I was proud of my very first tractor project.

 

[daBear]

More rocks and pack em down. Be hard as woodpecker lips soon.

 

[dmccarty]

Digging down like you did created a trench to hold water. I hear people saying to do it all the time but I don't understand why.

Are the 52's just gravel or does it do have small fines/dust as well? I use ABC which is gravel up to 1.5-2 inches plus fines. This stuff locks up almost like concrete when its set down. The fines help lock the gravel togather. It does not easily move. ABC is what our DOT uses as a road base in NC. I have one area that is just 57 stone and it has rutted up for two reasons, no fabric and no fines. The gravel moves pretty easy where I park the truck.

I used geotextile fabric when I built our driveway. The driveway is at least 600 feet long. The fabric distributes the load from vehicles driving on the drive but also keeps the mud/clay from merging with the gravel. The fabric allows one to use less gravel as well.

My suggestion would be to use geotextile fabric with gravel that has fines.

Later,
Dan

 

[radioman]

when you removed the topsoil before dropping down the stones, you created a tub to hold water. The water has got to go somewhere. I betcha if you dug right at the edge of your new driveway with a shovel and just go down 6 inches, , that newly dug hole will pool in with just water. With this being the case, in order to save your driveway , you will need to trench a line leading away from the driveway going downhill. at the end of the trench, if you have no place for the water to run off into like a ditch, you will need to create a drywell filledd with large stones to allow water to drian into. The other thing you need is to lockdown the driveway with mix of fines and different size stones. In my area its called crusher run and once its laid down, compacted and rains a few times, it will harden up like concrete.

 

[ray66v]

There are a million threads on gravel drives you can search, and as usual, often disagreement on how to do them.

I have done several, and short of doing it like an interstate highway, God bless you if you can afford a first class drive, here is what you need to do for a good serviceable drive, for cars and pickup's.

As far as the large stone on the base goes, it seems like a good idea, and makes perfect sense. EXCEPT, as you can see if you do not have a way to properly compact screening into all the voids, it will hold water and you know the rest.

No matter what size the stone you put in mud, it will disappear. No matter how much stone you put in mud, it will disappear.

Because of that, The first thing you need to do different, is use the Geotex fabric. No matter what happens, you won't get mud in your stone. The fabric keeps the mud and the stone separated.

If you are working in an area that is wet, you may consider building up the drive above the grade, for some or all of the thickness your putting down.

Lay the fabric, and spread 2" of #304 limestone, moisten, and compact. If you are too cheap to rent a plate compactor or, the drive is too large, you can drive over it to compact it. If your supplier has a small truck, A competent driver can tailgate this stone for you, and save you a lot of time. Spread a second 2" layer of #304 limestone, moisten, and compact. Spread a third layer of #304, moisten, and compact. "Cap" the drive with a thin layer of #57 limestone, (3/4).

If water tends to settle in this area, consider grading changes, or drain tile to keep it dry.

If you do all this, you will not have any more trouble.

 

[Airic]

Growing up as a kid we never created a trench as we did not have a tractor and just laid the gravel on top and it worked fine. I debated this in my head but was trying to go by the rule book on what was said on this forum but, regretfully opted without the Geo fabric. The used 52's I went with was cheap and had lots of broken up concrete in it and it did vary from large to very fine particulates.

Can I still add the fabric on top of what I have and how many more inches of stone should I add on the top of that? I really only want to go another 4" or it starts messing with the elevations I have planned. If I have to go further I may need to re grade some areas.

It just seems to be odd that the drive was so stable for the year and then its first winter, it fall apart.

 

[dirtworksequip]

Airic, without drainage you are wasting your money on fabric and additional stone. No mater what material you put down if it stays wet for even a short time it will turn to sh_t. If you don't want to change your grades then consider renting a trencher and putting in french drains to keep the drive dry. You could probably trench down about 18 inches along the edge of the drive and put in 4 inch perf. pipe and fill the rest of the trench with 57 river gravel. This french drain trench would need to be daylighted so what ever water it catches drains out. The key to keeping a good road is to keep it dry. Good material will be bad material if it gets wet and bad material can be made good by drying it.

Sincerely, Dirt

 

[ray66v]

Growing up as a kid we never created a trench as we did not have a tractor and just laid the gravel on top and it worked fine. I debated this in my head but was trying to go by the rule book on what was said on this forum but, regretfully opted without the Geo fabric. The used 52's I went with was cheap and had lots of broken up concrete in it and it did vary from large to very fine particulates.

Can I still add the fabric on top of what I have and how many more inches of stone should I add on the top of that? I really only want to go another 4" or it starts messing with the elevations I have planned. If I have to go further I may need to re grade some areas.

It just seems to be odd that the drive was so stable for the year and then its first winter, it fall apart.

Hey, you can drive on dirt, if its dry.

Remember, the water is causing your problems. And, its going to take a while to dry out, (summer). Especially, if you go over it while it's soft. Your going to have to be patient now.

Yes, you can go on top of what you have. It will rut some, where the tires run on it, because of the soft ground underneath. But, with the fabric, the mud will stay down. When it dries out, (summer), you can fill in the rutted parts, and cap it.

Unless you dig down to China, you have to use the fabric. It does not cost more to use it, in the end.

 

[dmccarty]

Can I still add the fabric on top of what I have and how many more inches of stone should I add on the top of that? I really only want to go another 4" or it starts messing with the elevations I have planned. If I have to go further I may need to re grade some areas.

It just seems to be odd that the drive was so stable for the year and then its first winter, it fall apart.

There are few areas in my drive that has 4 inches of ABC. In some places I bet its only a 1-2 inches because the site clearing people spread the gravel I laid even thinner. They did me a "favor". Our plan was to put down a thin layer of ABC then once the house was finished we would put down the rest of the gravel to make things look nice. Well, the gravel got cut from the house budget during construction. We have tried to add to the base for years but something else always comes up.

Our driveway is built on NC clay that once its wet is just a mess. The fabric and ABC has held up to the concrete trucks, brick trucks, logging trucks, and other construction traffic just fine. The only problem we have had with the drive is slight erosion that is easily fixed with the box blade. The reason we have the problem is that I tried to smooth out the grade to put down the fabric and dug a trench. I stopped once I saw I was digging a ditch instead of a driveway and I just was not smoothing things out just finding more rocks and roots. One day we will drop gravel in this one section of driveway which will raise above the grade and the water won't get on the drive in the first place. Erosion problem solved.

My neighbors did not use fabric so they add gravel to their drives every few years to pay off the mud gods. And some of them have some really bad erosion problems.

I forgot the price I paid for fabric a few years ago to extend our drive. I think it might have been $300 per 360 foot roll. The roll was 12.5 feet wide. The stuff is real cheap compared to ABC and the truck to deliver the gravel.

Later,
Dan

 

[dodge man]

My opinion is that fabric would have helped, but not been the answer to your problem. Like others have said, water is the problem. Looking at the picture I can't tell if you are trapping water along the edges or not. It doesn't look like it to me. Thats the problem with a gravel driveway, it porus, so rain and water will get into it and the base. The when get alot of freeze and thaw cycles, you end up with what you have. You could ad alot of drains like others have said, but there is still a chance it will do it again next year. The real problem is, as you suggested, the constant freeze thaw cycles.