New House - Central Air

[Alan L.]

We are close to breaking ground, still trying to get some costs together. Wow, how prices have gone up. My house is 2123 square feet of living area, 1679 downstairs and 444 upstairs. Also has a 684 sq foot garage and about 1000 sq feet of porches included a 150 square foot upstairs balcony. Slab foundation with 30 piers - no basement.

With NO builder fee, the current estimates are about $96 per square foot. Nothing special other than Andersen windows ($7500 for 20) and foam insulation. If we do a metal roof, add about another $6 a foot, as the roof with all the porches is about 63 squares. Add another $2 if we foam the roof.

I am most shocked by the air conditioning bid. We know we need a unit for upstairs, one for our bedroom (we turn it to 60 at night) and one for the rest of downstairs. Lowest one $13,500 for 3 2-ton Rheems. These are basic economy units, 13 SEER, single stage. Preliminary for Trane high efficiency dual compressor - $25,000!

Do these figures sound high to everyone here? I'm getting frustrated about the costs. we have given up having any rock on the house, and are close to giving up the metal roof, but we must concentrate on air conditioning utilities here in Texas, so please help us decide where its best to put the money:

1. Metal roof - $22,000 vs $8,000 for asphalt -studies show the attic is cooler with metal.
2. Foaming the entire roof - $6,000 vs about $1,500 for standard fiberglass.
3. Foaming the walls - $5,000 vs $1200 for fiberglass batts
4. 19 SEER Air conditioning $25,000 vs $13,500 for 13 SEER.

We can't afford all of this, so we have to prioritize. I would put foaming the walls as a top priority, because this can never be changed later. We could foam the attic later, put on a different roof, and change a/c units later.

Note: I recently read an article about a test evaluating different types and colors of roofs in Florida. Seven houses were tested with various roofs. The control house was dark gray asphalt shingles and standard R20 ceiling insulation, proper ventilation, etc. It was the worst in termis of A/C load; however, the best was the house with white metal roof and standard insulation which was better than the foamed house with asphalt roof. Although the foamed house with sealed attic and no ventilation had by far the coolest attic, this did not result in a/c cost savings, and in fact was only slightly better than the control house, but much less efficient that the house with the metal roof and standard insulation/vented roof. Based on this, I don't feel asphalt shingles and a foamed/sealed attic are a good combination.

 

[BillG_in_TX]

1. Metal roof - $22,000 vs $8,000 for asphalt -studies show the attic is cooler with metal.

Alan,

I'm no expert, but I have a friend here is Dallas that is a builder/remodeler and he tells me that $100/sq is a ballpark estimate for a good asphalt roof, and $175-$200/sq would be a good estimate for a roof using material like Mueller's CF Panel - Mueller, Inc. - Steel Buildings and Metal Roofing. Neither one of those quotes include the decking, which is usually included in the framing cost, but would include all labor and materials above that.

63 squares @ $200 would only be $12,600, so I'm not sure what kind of metal roof you're considering, but it must be nice! Also, I assume you are planning to use a radiant barrier, like TechShield Radiant Barrier – LP, right?

edit: the above numbers were for a house I am considering, which is very simple rectangle with a large shed dormer on one side and none on the other. Eddie Walker can probably give you better information on Mueller costs, since I think he & Steph just put one on their house. Better yet, maybe they'll come over and install one for you!

 

[CharlieTR]

I paid 3600 for my 3 ton Rheem a year ago.
The dealer told me the prices were going way up because of the new energy laws for 2006. That may explain some increase. $96 per sf seems real high for this area.

BTW: My insurance said they would give me 38-40% discount if I put on a 40 year hail proof roof. I tried to get one, but it took too long to get delivered.

Have fun with it.

 

[hazmat]

I just had 2 carrier infinity systems retrofitted to my house in Massachusetts (not known for low labor rates)

3rd floor (400 sq ft) - 40,000 btu furnace 94% effecient, 2 ton A/C 15 SEER & ductwork
2nd floor (~1,200 sq ft) - air handler + 2 ton A/C 15 SEER & ductwork

Total - 19,000 - 2,000 rebates from Carrier = $17,000 I did the electric myself (that would have added $2,000.

The infinity is the top of the line system from carrier. I think you can do better than 15 SEER, but it isn't cost effective in New England.

I think you are on the right track - spend the money on the stuff that is hard to upgrade later. Although, I'd hate to "upgrade" a roof before it needed replacing - I paid $10,000 to get my roof redone on my rental property - 25 "sqaures" asphalt shingles. Same for the A/C. Maybe you should shop around some more....

 

[EddieWalker]

We are close to breaking ground, still trying to get some costs together. Wow, how prices have gone up. My house is 2123 square feet of living area, 1679 downstairs and 444 upstairs. Also has a 684 sq foot garage and about 1000 sq feet of porches included a 150 square foot upstairs balcony. Slab foundation with 30 piers - no basement.

With NO builder fee, the current estimates are about $96 per square foot. Nothing

Hi Alan,

I just lost out on a bid for a 2,400 square foot house. I bid $72 a square foot, but the guy who got it said he could do it for $65. That's too close to my cost to make it worthwhile.

This is a nice three bedroom house with a big family room and open kitchen, single story southern plantation style home. All brick exterior with some nice columns and a 10:12 pitch roof. They had it all drawn up with an architect and it was pretty straightforward.

I'm real curious in what your doing to a house that it will cost $96 a foot without a builder making any profit on it. Materials are about the same here as there, and prices have dropped dramatically on OSB. $7.50 a sheet is a steal compared to $14 a sheet that I payed last year.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[InlineDieselFan]

No commnet on the AC, we don't need it here.

But you Texan's get Kubota's cheap and house built cheap. $100 square foot was for absolute bare bones basic, linoulium (sp), and carpet, formica countertops and contractor special appliances, toilet fixtures, and absolutly no brick work. I had to pay $22 sq foot for brick work, on the front porch and the first few feet up on the garage faces.

steve

 

[Alan L.]

I can't put my finger on what is costing so much, it is so spread out. EVERYTHING is too high.

Living area is 2125, total including porches and garage about 3650, roof 6300, slab about 3200. Roof pitch is 12 and there are very high ceilings which cause some extra labor. The living room is 20 by 23 with 20 foot high cathedral, and some big gluelam beams running across it.

My contractor friend that is helping me on this gave me these figures, which he says is pretty much what the cost will be. I do his taxes, so I know he always makes money and I've never seen him underestimate his costs.

Foundation 4.85 per sq foot = $15,520
plus piers 30 x $100 = $3000
Framing labor $4.50 per sq foot on entire 3650 = 16,425
Plumbing $11,000 (3 baths, 2 sinks in kitchen, one in mudroom, 6' jacuzzi in master)
Framing (etc) materials $37,000
Windows (Andersen) $7500 for 20 windows
Ashalt roof $125 per square
Electrical including can lights $2.25 per sq foot for 3650 = $8212
Brick 11,000 @ $425 = 4,675
Brick laying 11,000 @ 425 = 4,675
Foam insulation walls & Roof - about $11,000
Foam in walls only - total would be about $6,000
Drywall labor $2,000
Texture labor $1.25 x 2125 = 2,656
Trim labor $1.00 x 2125 = 2,125
Cabinets $8500
HVAC $13,500
Garage doors & openers $1,200
Vanity tops $750
Kitchen countertops $3500
Painting 3650 (all of it) x $2,75 = $10,038
Floor allowance $5 x 2125 = $10,625
Electrical fixture allowance $2700
Appliance allowance $3500
Door hardware allowance $750
Mirrors $750
Metal fireplace $1200
Stairs $2250
Flatwork $2200
Tile in shower $1500
Misc & cleaning $2100
I have arbitrarily added $3000 for door upgrades, as the materials bid has a $750 patio door and the one we want is about $2500, and I didn't think the other doors would be quite what we want either.

A young neighbor who is an a/c contractor is trying to convince me the should spend the money on Trane - he hates Rheem. But even the $13,500 seems awful high.

Materials estimate includes all cedar exterior trim including under all the porches, so it could be overstated $3000 or so.

On the metal roof, the Mueller CF panels (galvalume) are $79 per square, but I gave them my plan and they quoted about $160 a square for materials (including flashing, trim, etc) and $175 a square for labor. I called another roofer and he said he would do it for $160 labor but probably couldn't get to it in time. Another roofing contractor that rolls their own panels on site said their labor only is $300 a square but materials probably only $140 a square. He said you can figure 2.5 to 3.5 times as much as an asphalt roof. All 3 roofers gasped when I said its a 12 pitch roof, they say it is hard to work on and costs alot more.

Does anything really stick out here? We spent $1200 or so on our custom plans and now it looks like it needs to shrink to get some of the things we want. If I could squeeze in the metal roof for $210K we'll probalby do it, but unless I give up something on the ac unit or the insulation we can't get it in the budget.

 

[hilld]

Alan,

I just installed 2 heatpumps in my house and barn. Ok, I installed the barn, a HVAC contractor installed the house. They did re-use some of the existing ducting, but here is what they did. 5 Ton, Carrier Infinity system, 17 Seer, 2 zones and associated zone controllers and dampers, Honeywell electronic air filter, all runs under the house hard pipe, 2 story, 3800 sqft house with 2 thermostats, etc....$14000.

I think for your size house, you can probably do better, my system is pretty much top of the line, (I did get a bid on a Trane - 8 zones - ~$22000 - so I passed). I chose a heat pump for 2 reasons, electric rates are somewhat regulated (at least the increases are much smaller than gas or god forbid - oil) and the other is that I wanted to replace the oil furnace I had and remove the tank. I am glad I went the electric route, to have gas installed to my property was close to $30000 (I didn't really want to spend that).

The actually install of the system took 2 guys about 8 days (working) and they did a nice job. The finish work took almost longer as they were having some problems with one of the zone controllers, but it is sure nice sending all the cold air upstairs at night and none downstairs, and vise versa during the day.

Derek

 

[dmccarty]

Alan,

1. Metal roof - $22,000 vs $8,000 for asphalt -studies show the attic is cooler with metal.
2. Foaming the entire roof - $6,000 vs about $1,500 for standard fiberglass.
3. Foaming the walls - $5,000 vs $1200 for fiberglass batts
4. 19 SEER Air conditioning $25,000 vs $13,500 for 13 SEER.

I just don't remember what our HVAC cost. I know 10 years ago I put in a SEER 12/13 maybe a 2 ton for about $3,200. That was just the box outside and the unit inside.

You need to look at the costs of running a SEER 19 vs SEER 13 and then compare the costs. The $11,500 difference between the two units buys a whole of lot of power. That SEER 19 had better cost next to nothing to run to even get close to making it worth the dollar. If you get 12 years out of the unit that is almost $1,000 a year. The SEER 19 is costing you $80ish per month. Is the SEER 19 going to save you $100 a month to run compared to the SEER 13?

I'm not in Texas and people have set the thermostats differently but my highest power bills is $150ish in the summer. Most of the year we pay $90-100 a month. No way in heck that I could justify a SEER 19 system. I THINK our HVAC is SEER 13. Its a Goodwin brand.

I would be more inclined to foam the walls and put up the metal roof. OK that is more than then difference between the two systems but I'm only spending your money.

Later,
Dan

 

[Alan L.]

Alan,

I just installed 2 heatpumps in my house and barn. Ok, I installed the barn, a HVAC contractor installed the house. They did re-use some of the existing ducting, but here is what they did. 5 Ton, Carrier Infinity system, 17 Seer, 2 zones and associated zone controllers and dampers, Honeywell electronic air filter, all runs under the house hard pipe, 2 story, 3800 sqft house with 2 thermostats, etc....$14000.

I think for your size house, you can probably do better, my system is pretty much top of the line, (I did get a bid on a Trane - 8 zones - ~$22000 - so I passed). I chose a heat pump for 2 reasons, electric rates are somewhat regulated (at least the increases are much smaller than gas or god forbid - oil) and the other is that I wanted to replace the oil furnace I had and remove the tank. I am glad I went the electric route, to have gas installed to my property was close to $30000 (I didn't really want to spend that).

The actually install of the system took 2 guys about 8 days (working) and they did a nice job. The finish work took almost longer as they were having some problems with one of the zone controllers, but it is sure nice sending all the cold air upstairs at night and none downstairs, and vise versa during the day.

Derek

How do you think the multiple zones works energy wise vs separate units? Obviously one unit with 2 zones is less money than 2 separate units.

Also, does anyone have a loft? My A/C guy has one (and we will) and says the ac won't stay up there because it goes downstairs. Says maybe not a problem with us since the upstairs will only need serious cooling when we have visitors or we are cleaning up there. The master is downstairs and our kids are grown.

Also, in case we don't go overboard on the downstairs unit for regular Texas heat (97), could the upstairs maybe provide some extra cooling for the living room that the loft overlooks when its 100+?