NH Boomer 3050 Battery Sized Too Small

[WM75Guy]

The battery size is not the problem. My TC40DA and Boomer 8N both use that battery. I have never had an issue starting below freezing. Turn the switch, let the glow plugs go off, and it takes about three cranks to start either.

The NH specs and online parts diagrams for the TC45D and TC45DA call for that same battery. The Boomer 41 and 47 are manufactured by LS which may account for why they use a different battery.

 

[Jerry/MT]

I purchased a new NH Boomer 3050 and found that the engine didn't crank over very well to the point of hardly starting. (It was a 2013 model and had sat around and as a result the battery had a sulfation problem.) I got a brand new battery from the dealer and it's performance is not real good--at approx. 36 degrees F, the minimum cranking voltage was 9.2 V. The battery is a group 47 (600 CCA) which is substantially smaller than the group 24F that was on the NH TC45D which has the same engine displacement. With the TC45D, it turned over pretty well, even at freezing temperatures. A NH Boomer 41 and 47 has Group 34 770 CCA battery.

When I mentioned the group size that was in my tractor, to an ASE Certified Master Auto and Truck Tech, that works on tractors also, he immediately thought it was undersized for the tractor.

I was wondering if any one that has a Boomer 3045 or 3050 that use them during cold winters has had any problems starting their tractors?

Thanks

What oil are you using in the engine? Are you using glow plugs, block heater or some sort of starting aid. I use 15W40 year round and I use the block heater in all our diesels whenever the ambient temperature is below 40F. You might consider a block heater or a lower viscosity oil as recommended in your owners manual.
Your cranking voltage should go down with starter load and 9.2 V does not sound like a too low a value but I don't have the specs for your system. If the tractor is spec'd for that battery, I doubt the battery is the problem. Cold weather starting is a problem with diesels because the battery out put goes down with ambient temperature and the starter load goes up due to oil viscosity and the "fire is harder to light" due to cold combustion chamber walls and lower gas temperatures in the combustion chamber. That's why they make starting aids. If you have them use them. If you don't, consider adding a block heater. They are relatively cheap, effective, and easy to install.

 

[Coyote machine]

What oil are you using in the engine? Are you using glow plugs, block heater or some sort of starting aid. I use 15W40 year round and I use the block heater in all our diesels whenever the ambient temperature is below 40F. You might consider a block heater or a lower viscosity oil as recommended in your owners manual.
Your cranking voltage should go down with starter load and 9.2 V does not sound like a too low a value but I don't have the specs for your system. If the tractor is spec'd for that battery, I doubt the battery is the problem. Cold weather starting is a problem with diesels because the battery out put goes down with ambient temperature and the starter load goes up due to oil viscosity and the "fire is harder to light" due to cold combustion chamber walls and lower gas temperatures in the combustion chamber. That's why they make starting aids. If you have them use them. If you don't, consider adding a block heater. They are relatively cheap, effective, and easy to install.

What you said about 9.2Volts minimum cranking voltage is just not true. At a voltage like that a diesel won't start, and the battery will die trying to crank at that low voltage. Batteries, regardless of group/size need to remain within 80% of full charge capacity or they die a premature death.
The battery IS the size required by the manufacturer, and when the OP gives us what I asked him for in an earlier post, his problem will be able to be determined and fixed. Until then, everything is pure speculation about block heaters, oil viscosity, etc.

If in an extremely cold climate, and the tractor being outside, (assuming it is stored outside, IDR), the best oil would be a 5W-40 DIESEL like Shell Rotella, or similar. In the case of being outside, a block heater could/would help with cold starts, BUT so would the glow plug circuit's proper function, and winterized diesel fuel, etc.

Once again- once we have relevant specs on the battery/ charging system's function, then a proper diagnosis can be done.....:thumbsup:

 

[Jerry/MT]

What you said about 9.2Volts minimum cranking voltage is just not true. At a voltage like that a diesel won't start, and the battery will die trying to crank at that low voltage. Batteries, regardless of group/size need to remain within 80% of full charge capacity or they die a premature death.
The battery IS the size required by the manufacturer, and when the OP gives us what I asked him for in an earlier post, his problem will be able to be determined and fixed. Until then, everything is pure speculation about block heaters, oil viscosity, etc.

If in an extremely cold climate, and the tractor being outside, (assuming it is stored outside, IDR), the best oil would be a 5W-40 DIESEL like Shell Rotella, or similar. In the case of being outside, a block heater could/would help with cold starts, BUT so would the glow plug circuit's proper function, and winterized diesel fuel, etc.

Once again- once we have relevant specs on the battery/ charging system's function, then a proper diagnosis can be done.....:thumbsup:

You sound like you are all lathered up over my response. This is an internet forum where people try to help other people. Loosen up.

And just what is the proper voltage during cranking? The OP said he measured 9.2V. That's maybe on the low side of normal. I've measured that level on one of our diesels and I don't have any trouble starting. And you don't believe a block heater, properly used, would decrease starter load at low ambient temperatures? What evidence do you have of that? A lot folks in cold climates use them for just that reason. I don't know what the operators manual says about oil viscosity recommendations that's why I didn't recommend them.

I'm not saying he may not have other problems but it sounds like a newish tractor and it's unlikely he has overly corroded cables ,etc. He sounds like he's not familiar with diesels and their difficulties in cold ambient temperatures. To be sure 32F is not abnormally cold but it's a plain and simple fact that the physics of cold weather starting of a compression engine is going to be more difficult that a spark ignition engine and that's what most folks are used to.

 

[Coyote machine]

You sound like you are all lathered up over my response. This is an internet forum where people try to help other people. Loosen up.

And just what is the proper voltage during cranking? The OP said he measured 9.2V. That's maybe on the low side of normal. I've measured that level on one of our diesels and I don't have any trouble starting. And you don't believe a block heater, properly used, would decrease starter load at low ambient temperatures? What evidence do you have of that? A lot folks in cold climates use them for just that reason. I don't know what the operators manual says about oil viscosity recommendations that's why I didn't recommend them.

An internet forum? Really, thanks for the news. Giving people incorrect information is NOT helpful, and can be dangerous, depending on the erroneous info given.

I'm not in any kind of lather, as you put it- but I can't abide by wrong 'internet forum' nonsense, either.
I don't need to lighten up, either- I'm here to provide useful correct info to help the OP- You? What's your purpose here?
Sure a block heater will help reduce unnecessary strain on a battery/starter in extreme cold. Where did I say I didn't believe in a block heater? :confused2: The OP is having problems at 32* and similar. Not exactly sub zero cold. His problem is not about using a block heater per se; and it won't hurt to add one once the real issue is solved. Fuel jelling can be as much a problem in below freezing temps, especially if the fuel is not winterized, or his fuel filter is clogged with dirt/water particles, etc.
Regardless of what his manual says about oil viscosity in cold temps, the oil brand and grade, especially being synthetic, and specifically for diesel engines, that I mentioned can be a big enhancer of cold starting a diesel engine. But, this is all in addition to solving why his engine goes below 9.6 volts when cranking... See below on minimum cranking voltages allowed.

BTW, I said in my prior post: battery voltage cannot drop below 80% or battery dies a early death. 12V x 80% = 9.6 volts, minimum voltage at cranking.

Here's a link to batteries/starters/and voltage requirements. It happens to be about marine engines, and marine diesels, but the main voltage issues at the battery and starter are common to all engines.
It may help the OP better understand his starting issues.

Link:Marine Starting Systems


BTW, I owned and ran a foreign auto repair and sales shop for over ten years here in VT. We routinely saw frozen diesels off the mountains with skiers and the like. Block heaters did NOTHING to get their diesel Benzes started in sub-zero weather. What did get them started was thawing them in a 80* shop for several hours, a complete fluid change, oil, fuel, etc., and adding Red Line Diesel catalyst to their fuel tanks.
Most often they cranked their batteries 'till dead too. Sometimes we'd have to replace those too, with Interstate batteries, for which I was a dealer.

 

[Jerry/MT]

An internet forum? Really, thanks for the news. Giving people incorrect information is NOT helpful, and can be dangerous, depending on the erroneous info given.

I'm not in any kind of lather, as you put it- but I can't abide by wrong 'internet forum' nonsense, either.
I don't need to lighten up, either- I'm here to provide useful correct info to help the OP- You? What's your purpose here?
Sure a block heater will help reduce unnecessary strain on a battery/starter in extreme cold. Where did I say I didn't believe in a block heater? :confused2: The OP is having problems at 32* and similar. Not exactly sub zero cold. His problem is not about using a block heater per se; and it won't hurt to add one once the real issue is solved. Fuel jelling can be as much a problem in below freezing temps, especially if the fuel is not winterized, or his fuel filter is clogged with dirt/water particles, etc.
Regardless of what his manual says about oil viscosity in cold temps, the oil brand and grade, especially being synthetic, and specifically for diesel engines, that I mentioned can be a big enhancer of cold starting a diesel engine. But, this is all in addition to solving why his engine goes below 9.6 volts when cranking... See below on minimum cranking voltages allowed.

BTW, I said in my prior post: battery voltage cannot drop below 80% or battery dies a early death. 12V x 80% = 9.6 volts, minimum voltage at cranking.

Here's a link to batteries/starters/and voltage requirements. It happens to be about marine engines, and marine diesels, but the main voltage issues at the battery and starter are common to all engines.
It may help the OP better understand his starting issues.

Link:Marine Starting Systems


BTW, I owned and ran a foreign auto repair and sales shop for over ten years here in VT. We routinely saw frozen diesels off the mountains with skiers and the like. Block heaters did NOTHING to get their diesel Benzes started in sub-zero weather. What did get them started was thawing them in a 80* shop for several hours, a complete fluid change, oil, fuel, etc., and adding Red Line Diesel catalyst to their fuel tanks.
Most often they cranked their batteries 'till dead too. Sometimes we'd have to replace those too, with Interstate batteries, for which I was a dealer.

Per your reference, the 9.6V is at 50% CCA /B]. What was the starter current when the OP measured 9.2V?

 

[Coyote machine]

Per your reference, the 9.6V is at 50% CCA /B]. What was the starter current when the OP measured 9.2V?

I'm not sure what you're saying/asking? I don't have anything stat wise other than what the OP provided...

 

[Coyote machine]

Here is a further description about lead acid, (wet battery(s). state of charge specs. It is from the instruction manual of Battery Tender brand battery tender/chargers.
Link:https://www.batterystuff.com/files/manual-product_instructions_bt_junior.pdf

Quote: "If a 12 Volt, Lead-Acid battery has an output voltage of less than 9 volts when it is at rest, when it is neither being charged nor supplying electrical current to an external load, there is a good chance that the battery is defective. As a frame of reference, a *fully charged 12-Volt, Lead-Acid battery will have a rest state, no-load voltage of approximately 12.9 volts. A fully discharged 12-Volt, Lead-Acid battery will have a rest-state, no-load voltage of approximately 11.4 volts. That means that a voltage change of only 1.5 volts represents the full range of charge 0% to 100% on a 12-Volt, Lead-Acid battery. Depending on the manufacturer, and the age of the battery, the specific voltages will vary by a few tenths of a volt, but the 1.5-volt range will still be a good indicator of the battery charge %."

*Bold text and underlined text added for clarity.

 

[buickanddeere]

There maybe some sort of phantom hydraulic pump load that is dragging down the starter as it's attempting to crank the diesel ?

 

[Coyote machine]

There maybe some sort of phantom hydraulic pump load that is dragging down the starter as it's attempting to crank the diesel ?

What makes you suspect this? The starter could have a bad bearing or any number of other things wrong with it- but we're not there yet....

 

[WCarp]

I purchased a new NH Boomer 3050 and found that the engine didn't crank over very well to the point of hardly starting. (It was a 2013 model and had sat around and as a result the battery had a sulfation problem.) I got a brand new battery from the dealer and it's performance is not real good--at approx. 36 degrees F, the minimum cranking voltage was 9.2 V. The battery is a group 47 (600 CCA) which is substantially smaller than the group 24F that was on the NH TC45D which has the same engine displacement. With the TC45D, it turned over pretty well, even at freezing temperatures. A NH Boomer 41 and 47 has Group 34 770 CCA battery.

When I mentioned the group size that was in my tractor, to an ASE Certified Master Auto and Truck Tech, that works on tractors also, he immediately thought it was undersized for the tractor.

I was wondering if any one that has a Boomer 3045 or 3050 that use them during cold winters has had any problems starting their tractors?

Thanks

Apparently, there aren't many people out there that start their 3050's in rather cold without a block heater--and actually, there doesn't seem to be many around, in particular, Washington State.

Here are some reasons why I mentioned that the battery size is too small:

1. NH puts a 770 CCA battery on similar sized tractor, the Boomer 41 and 47 and the TC 45D comes with a group 24F battery which can put out 800 CCA, see above.
2. John Deere, I was told by a salesman, put 770 CCA batteries on their similar engine sized 4000 series tractors.
3. According to Pacific Power Batteries at: Pacific Power Batteries - About Automotive Batteries, "4-cylinder diesel engine, 700-800 CCA."
4. As I mentioned above "When I mentioned the group size that was in my tractor, to an ASE Certified Master Auto and (Heavy) Truck Tech, that works on tractors also, he immediately thought it was undersized for the tractor." In addition, this man has a degree in Automotive Technology and approximately 40 years of experience in the trade.
5. The same Tech mentioned above does not recommend a starting voltage less than 9.6 V for diesels and prefers it to be 10V or greater.
6. The minimum voltage I had was 9.2 V with a new fully charged battery. (It had been tested by the Shop Manager at New Holland.)
7. Interesting fact from:Get your car battery's starting power tested for any climate - Batteries Plus Bulbs Blog "According to the Battery Council International, diesel engines require 220% to 300% more current than their gasoline counterparts; winter starting requires 140% to 170% more current than the summer."

Also, since the engine has not been broken in yet, it will take a little more torque to turn it over so the issue is more noticeable with an engine that's not broken in yet.

 

[Coyote machine]

Apparently, there aren't many people out there that start their 3050's in rather cold without a block heater--and actually, there doesn't seem to be many around, in particular, Washington State.

Here are some reasons why I mentioned that the battery size is too small:

1. NH puts a 770 CCA battery on similar sized tractor, the Boomer 41 and 47 and the TC 45D comes with a group 24F battery which can put out 800 CCA, see above.
2. John Deere, I was told by a salesman, put 770 CCA batteries on their similar engine sized 4000 series tractors.
3. According to Pacific Power Batteries at: Pacific Power Batteries - About Automotive Batteries, "4-cylinder diesel engine, 700-800 CCA."
4. As I mentioned above "When I mentioned the group size that was in my tractor, to an ASE Certified Master Auto and (Heavy) Truck Tech, that works on tractors also, he immediately thought it was undersized for the tractor." In addition, this man has a degree in Automotive Technology and approximately 40 years of experience in the trade.
5. The same Tech mentioned above does not recommend a starting voltage less than 9.6 V for diesels and prefers it to be 10V or greater.
6. The minimum voltage I had was 9.2 V with a new fully charged battery. (It had been tested by the Shop Manager at New Holland.)
7. Interesting fact from:Get your car battery's starting power tested for any climate - Batteries Plus Bulbs Blog "According to the Battery Council International, diesel engines require 220% to 300% more current than their gasoline counterparts; winter starting requires 140% to 170% more current than the summer."

Also, since the engine has not been broken in yet, it will take a little more torque to turn it over so the issue is more noticeable with an engine that's not broken in yet.

Not sure what your point is in restating what you originally posted? I get that an ASE diesel guy says this and that- which I've confirmed by various links citing documents that cover all the starting, charging, crank voltage requirements for diesels.

It's good to know that the battery you were given as a replacement for the sulfated battery was fully charged when you took possession of it.
BUT, now where are we with this situation? Have you removed the battery and done a load test on it to see if it passes or fails? You have not provided answers to the questions I posed earlier about readings at your battery, static, while cranking, at idle, etc. Without some more specific data how do you want to proceed?
Here's the bottom line from someone with vast experience with diesel engines.
Unless the manufacturer specified the incorrect size, group # and specific battery CCa and they are/were wrong, what can you do to change your situation in your climate. Not much as far as fitting a different battery in the space. So what's left to do is this: determine if the replacement battery is the best it can be- maybe enlist it in the Army!:shocked:
If it passes a load test, it's probably OK and not defective, but you won't know until it passes or fails.
If it fails replace it again under warranty. Sometimes brand new off the shelf batteries are NFG. Depends too on how long it's been sitting on the dealer shelf. Verify with the manufacturer's date code- stamped into the battery case.
I occasionally came across a defective, or marginal battery from off the shelf stock, but infrequently.
After the battery is ruled out completely, then check the cables, all connections to and from the starter, battery ends, etc. to verify none are the cause of excessive drawdown while cranking. AND verify there are no stray voltage leaks which can drain a battery over time. I doubt this being the case for you- since you don't say the battery dies when left to sit.
Verify no fuel issues, clogged filter(s), non-winterized diesel in use, etc.
Install an approved block heater, very carefully, (to make sure no damage occurs to the block during install).
Test voltage drop at starter while cranking- after all other battery verification is done.
Move south.:confused3:

 

[Agvg]

How large engine? I have used old car batteries on several old tractors, 60ah worked nice down to 0 C, and it had a 4,5l engine.

 

[RickB]

Apparently, there aren't many people out there that start their 3050's in rather cold without a block heater--and actually, there doesn't seem to be many around, in particular, Washington State.

Here are some reasons why I mentioned that the battery size is too small:

1. NH puts a 770 CCA battery on similar sized tractor, the Boomer 41 and 47 and the TC 4D comes with a group 24F battery which can put out 800 CCA, see above.
2. John Deere, I was told by a salesman, put 770 CCA batteries on their similar engine sized 4000 series tractors.
3. According to Pacific Power Batteries at: Pacific Power Batteries - About Automotive Batteries, "4-cylinder diesel engine, 700-800 CCA."
4. As I mentioned above "When I mentioned the group size that was in my tractor, to an ASE Certified Master Auto and (Heavy) Truck Tech, that works on tractors also, he immediately thought it was undersized for the tractor." In addition, this man has a degree in Automotive Technology and approximately 40 years of experience in the trade.
5. The same Tech mentioned above does not recommend a starting voltage less than 9.6 V for diesels and prefers it to be 10V or greater.
6. The minimum voltage I had was 9.2 V with a new fully charged battery. (It had been tested by the Shop Manager at New Holland.)
7. Interesting fact from:Get your car battery's starting power tested for any climate - Batteries Plus Bulbs Blog "According to the Battery Council International, diesel engines require 220% to 300% more current than their gasoline counterparts; winter starting requires 140% to 170% more current than the summer."

Also, since the engine has not been broken in yet, it will take a little more torque to turn it over so the issue is more noticeable with an engine that's not broken in yet.

If we have to start this entire thread over again, do it without me.