Noisy Hydro on tractor after split

OldNick · Feb 27, 2018

Hi. I recently bought a Hino N279 tractor with a FEL attached by the motor trader.

Some hours of use later I had to get the clutch replaced because the bellhousing was full of

water and the clutch seized. Nother story. Not happy.

I took the loader off myself, spilling maybe 100ml of Hydro fluid.

Having put the loader back together, I find that the FEl and the 3pl are very noisy and slow.

They _worse_ when I start cycling the rams. Slower and I reckon noisier.

I reckon I would have noticed if this was the way it was when I bought it.At "wake up" it takes

20 sec to fully lift rams at idle. Next one is 24 secs, next is 28 secs. More and more

hesitations.

Oil level in trannie is fine with all rams extended.

SO I assume an intake leak. Tomorrow I check.

Any other ideas? ANyone know the Hino?

Thanks for any help. AFter a clutch collpases I do not need this.

Nick

mike48130 · Feb 27, 2018

Sounds like you have a leak on the suction side. Check for foaming oil in the tank. Probably a bad oring or seal or loos clamp. Maybe a bad hose end from removing and reinstalling. No idea on that tractor to tell you which one but need to trace all the lines.

Leejohn · Feb 27, 2018

Check all quick couplers.

OldNick · Feb 28, 2018

Hi guys. Thanks for the comebacks!

I will explain myself a little. Over the years I have dnoe a fair bit of this, but not now since many years ago. SO. Rusty but gradually awakening

I have thought it over and of course the loader is driven from the 3PL pump, which is immersed in trannie fluid. So no "inlets": As I said (although not clearly enough, I realise) I checked the oil level. and it is fine even all extended.

Guess I will just to use the beast for a couple hours and see what happens. Must have got more air in there than I realised when I broke the lines and then put the loader back on.

There are no quick couples, just good OF screw-in pressure joints.

I spoke to the machanic and he said he had to break no line except the power steering, which a completely different circuit.

I do have another question for discussion. When I took the loader off, I lost very little oil (50-100ml). I bought a coupler between spools inlet and spools outle lines to allow the tractor to be driven. Would it have improved matters if I had rejoined the spools to the lines _before_ I started putting he loader on? I had to manipulate the loader arms/rams a bit to line them up and of course that sucked air a couple of times. Trouble is, that would have connected the tractor to the loader while I was maneuvring it....nuisance.

Thanks again

Nick

oldnslo · Feb 28, 2018

Nick
Most pumps in these tractors have an inlet line with a screen on it. If this screen is plugged it will cause the pump to starve and be very noisy and your cylinders will also be slow and jerky. Running it like that will damage the pump.

OldNick · Feb 28, 2018

Ok. Hmmmm. I wondered about inlet constriction. I will run it for a couple of hours and see if it rids air. Then I have to look at clearing the filter. I assume that means diving into the trannie. If so I have been sold a POS. As I said, the bell housing was full of water.

My main hope was that it was not this bad until I broke the hydro system lines....

Nick

mike48130 · Feb 28, 2018

It does not take long to get the air out. A few cycles will push 90% or more of the air out. You have a suction leak, a blockage or failing pump. The first 2 will cause the third as others have warned you.

The pump should be on the front so there needs to be lines to the trans sump. These should have been pulled to split the tractor. I would look there first.

Did you use anything to block the lines when you had it apart? Forget to remove a temporary dirt cap on a line?

OldNick · Mar 1, 2018

Thanks for all this guys.

Yeah the air should clear in a few passes. That was why I became worried when I tried to use it.

Yeah the pump is on the front and not as in my other farm tractors. Sorted that (at last

. I checked the connection between the front and rear pasts of the infeed to the pump and tightened the clamps. I also loosened them and rotated the rubber hose to try to improve seal. In order to "seal" the deal I actually ran silicone around the rubber joiner.

No seals or caps left on there that I know of. On the loader in and out feeds, I used the plastic dust caps off the little bypass joiner that I bought. That was the only impediment I used and there was no way to put it back together with them on there.

The rubber pipework that I did has made quite an improvement. The hesitancy has 95% gone away but I still find the pump a little noisy under any load. I am going to look at the flanges on the inlet filter, as I found a tiny bit of Hydro fluid on one of them. I realise how little a leak it takes to makes noise in the pump. Once I have done that I have to consider whether it's the pump I guess.

One thing I do not know. I am aware that these 3PL - driven loaders are not up to industrial standards, but if I stall the loader on the Hino, say trying to dig hard dirt (which I realise is an abuse of the implement and not what it's meant for), it makes nowhere nearly as much difference to the engine as it does on my Massey 40 backhoe On the Massey, the engine really struggles if I stall the loader or backhoe hydraulically. Also, speeding up the engine makes less difference to no-load speed of operation of the loader ram. Are these a limitation of the system on the Hino (small pump; small 1/4" in and out to the loader main feed lines; less pressure setting at pressure release), or a sign that there is maybe bypass in the pump?

Again, I know the principles, not the tractor. I have not used an add-on loader on a small tractor before.

OldNick · Mar 1, 2018

Thanks for all this guys.

Yeah the air should clear in a few passes. That was why I became worried when I tried to use it.

Yeah the pump is on the front and not as in my other farm tractors. Sorted that (at last

. I checked the connection between the front and rear pasts of the infeed to the pump and tightened the clamps. I also loosened them and rotated the rubber hose to try to improve seal. In order to "seal" the deal I actually ran silicone around the rubber joiner.

No seals or caps left on there that I know of. On the loader in and out feeds, I used the plastic dust caps off the little bypass joiner that I bought. That was the only impediment I used and there was no way to put it back together with them on there.

The rubber pipework that I did has made quite an improvement. The hesitancy has 95% gone away but I still find the pump a little noisy under any load. I am going to look at the flanges on the inlet filter, as I found a tiny bit of Hydro fluid on one of them. I realise how little a leak it takes to makes noise in the pump. Once I have done that I have to consider whether it's the pump I guess.

One thing I do not know. I am aware that these 3PL - driven loaders are not up to industrial standards, but if I stall the loader on the Hino, say trying to dig hard dirt (which I realise is an abuse of the implement and not what it's meant for), it makes nowhere nearly as much difference to the engine as it does on my Massey 40 backhoe On the Massey, the engine really struggles if I stall the loader or backhoe hydraulically. Also, speeding up the engine makes less difference to no-load speed of operation of the loader ram. Are these a limitation of the system on the Hino (small pump; small 1/4" in and out to the loader main feed lines; less pressure setting at pressure release), or a sign that there is maybe bypass in the pump?

Again, I know the principles, not the tractor. I have not used an add-on loader on a small tractor before.

OldNick · Mar 1, 2018

Just further. I am also going to check/replace the hydro filter on the inlet to the pump. All filters were new, as was hydro oil, which looks very clean.

Trouble is, in all this I cannot remember what the tractor was like before splitting. I know it was better then when I first posted, but not now. I only used it to load two trailer loads of blue metal, and a plough. I was busy at the time and under pressure and also had earplugs in. So I can't tell what was before and what is after.

Leejohn · Mar 2, 2018

What brand hydro filter did you use?

OldNick · Mar 2, 2018

HAH! Just been checking that so I can replace it.

ermmm.... Nobrand brand. There is nothing written on it. This was brought from Japan and I assume the filters are pretty "bog" standard, so to speak.

Gunna take the measurements and get another one. The filter is the last step. I have sealed all intake joints by way of diagnosis (if it works I will ...leave it on there, sorry

..one day I will get around Tuit...bah! Hobby farmers!

).

OldNick · Mar 2, 2018

Just one final thing. I assume the oil reservoir is one big one on the N279 and I am not just checking the diff oil. I have tried to find another dipstick (aside from myself of course

). Anyone know?

Thanks for any advice on that.

Last step stuffed pump, I guess

OldNick · Mar 2, 2018

I am now convinced that I am getting massive amounts of air in the system and this is not the filter or cavitation for some other reason. Lowering the arms and bucket is only happening from weight. If I leave the bucket so it touches the ground with arms lowered, so with the bucket edge slightly downward, then lower the arms, the bucket just gives way and folds up. Air.

But I have sealed all joints on the intake line. I have even checked the tightness of the lines to the loader itself, even though AFAICS even the the return will simply put air into the oil and not into the intake for the pump.

I can hear air trickling though the pump even when it's not being asked to do anything.

AFAIK, cavitation itself produces no air as the air is not there. It causes bubbles of vacuum, which then just collapse again.

I am buying a manual and awaiting electronic delivery, but the question of whether the oil in the sump is for both diff and gears I would love an answer to if anyone knows.

OldNick · Mar 3, 2018

OK. Seems I am just going to have to work through this bit by bit.

OldNick · Mar 3, 2018

OK. Seems I am just going to have to work through this bit by bit. Like I used to befoer the wonderful world web

mike48130 · Mar 3, 2018

I had to replace my suction line to the screen on my jd. Couldn't get it to seal. Would drip when parked. If you have any kind wet spot or drip on the suction side then it is probably sucking air at that point. Did you clean the screen?

oldnslo · Mar 3, 2018

Nick
You state that you traced the pump inlet line and checked all the connections. Does this line connect to the side of the transmission housing?

If you loosen or remove this line is there any oil in it? If yes does it look and feel the same as what is on the dipstick you are referring to?

Is this oil hydraulic fluid or 80 weight gear oil? People have mistakenly filled these with 80 weight gear lube and that will not flow a filter and to the pump causing the problem you are experiencing.

bigdeano · Mar 3, 2018

A bad shaft seal on the pump might allow air to suck in, but I've never seen that happen. Seems like it would also allow oil to drip out when it's not running, but who knows.