Post Driver Hydraulic Hook-Up?

[reasley]

I just bought a Shaver HD-10 post driver to be used with a John Deere 4300 CUT that presently does not have power beyond, but does have a FEL.

With a post driver only "one-way" pressure is needed, correct? In other words, you only need pressure to raise the cylinder, and the return is just a big dump into the sump.

If this is the case, do I really need power beyond? If it is not needed in this application, couldn't I simply "T" into the existing hydraulic system for the one pressure line that I need?

Related, if I am not using the FEL, what are the potential problems with using one of the feeds to the FEL for my pressure line?

Thanks in advance.

 

[CATMAN]

Do you have a single hydraulic remote at the back of the tractor? If so, you should be able to attach the smaller, single hyd. pressure hose to it and then bunge cord/tie that hydraulic lever to the position which constantly supplies hydraulic pressure to the Shaver post driver(sends constant pressure to the hyd. spool valve on the post driver itself).

My Dad has a HD-8 Shaver post driver(front mount) on a older JD 4020, and we just wire tie the hyd. lever downward on the tractor control.​

No power beyond needed. Is your HD-10 rear or front mount? If it is rear mount, will the front loader stay on the tractor during post driving? I'll let someone else give advise about teeing into that system.

 

[reasley]

Thanks for the reply, Catman.

No, I do not have any connections at the rear -- there is a power beyond kit available but I don't think that I need it for this application since I only have one "pressure input."

Yes, it is rear mount and the FEL (with forklift attachment) will stay on to hold posts.

 

[Neil L]

I must be lucky, to have this subject come up now.

I am looking into a post driver and have a NH 29 D.

Is this enough tractor for an H-8, and if you don't mind what range in price should I expect?

Can this unit drive T-post without a bending problem (will it support a "T" post somewhere in the middle)?

I will be on hilly ground, can it be easily adjusted to plumb? Any one in southern WV have one of these and been happy? I think Shaver has been around sometime so they must stand behind their products?

Thanks to all,
Neil

 

[CATMAN]

Neil L: My dad's HD-8 is old(+30 years) and you can put in steel posts with it in Iowa's soil. It is a little scary, Dad would only give the driver about 6"-8" off "drop" on the first pound, because your hand/fingers/gloves are still gripping the steel post to hold it vertical. He never gives a steel post the entire drop of the driver(maybe 1/2-3/4 of the drop at most). It is too easy to overshot your final desired height, more important if the ground is moist. And yes, Shavers do have hand cranks(2) that adjust in two planes.{Tilt forward/back AND tilt the top left/right}.

 

[MikePA]

I must be lucky, to have this subject come up now. I am looking into a post driver and have a NH 29 D. Is this enough tractor for an H-8, and if you don't mind what range in price should I expect? Can this unit drive T-post without a bending problem (will it support a "T" post somewhere in the middle)?
I will be on hilly ground, can it be easily adjusted to plumb? Any one in southern WV have one of these and been happy? I think Shaver has been around sometime so they must stand behind their products?

The issue is not the weight (the driver sits on the ground when in use) or hp of the tractor, it's the hydraulic flow that's the issue. More flow, driver rises faster. I run one on a TC25D.

I have a Worksaver and it comes with an attachment that looks like a manual T post driver for use when driving T posts. There's no way I'd hold a T post to drive them. This adapter fits in the channel so the driver hits it, not the post.

The Worksaver has 2 adjusting cranks for plumbing the driver. Expect to pay about $2,500.

 

[RickB]

An important requirement for a Shaver hookup is a direct (zero pressure) return for the oil from the post driver's valve to the tractor's hyd reservoir (rear end housing). The oil HAS to get away from the cylinder fast. Flow requirements INTO the valve are somewhat overstated due to the small diameter of the lift cylinder. Lower flow = longer lift times with no other downside.

 

[CATMAN]

reasley; RickB brings up a good point about the return "dump" hose. Does a 4300 have that large of a hyd oil filler neck to be able to stick that return hose into? I mention the hyd. oil filler neck because that is where my dad's HD-8 return line dumps into. His return hose has probably at least a 1" I.D..

Did the salesman know that this Shaver HD-10 was going to be installed on a small CUT tractor?​

I have some "jerry-rigged" ideas to make it work(pressure line), but I want to see if the JD guys on this site will reply with a better solution, first. Meanwhile, you might want to investigate that return "dump" line situation(as RickB mentioned).

 

[reasley]

I must be lucky, to have this subject come up now.

Neil, see comments interspersed . . .

I am looking into a post driver and have a NH 29 D.

Is this enough tractor for an H-8, and if you don't mind what range in price should I expect?

I am unsure about your tractor's hydraulic system but an important point to note is that you can use a Shaver on your tractor as long as your tractor's PSI is 1500 or more. If your gallons per minute is below Shaver's stated requirement, the driver will still work on your tractor, but the ram will rise a bit slower.

Price new for the HD-8 is around $2400 here in Central Texas and around $3500 for the HD-10. Main differences are 1) down force (30,000 v. 71,500) and maximum post diameter (7 and 1/8" v. 8 and 3/4").

Can this unit drive T-post without a bending problem (will it support a "T" post somewhere in the middle)?

To me, if all you are doing is driving t-posts, any of the Shavers or similar drivers are overkill for the application. TSC, for example, has a t-post only driver for around $1200 that probably will work fine for your application. If, on the other hand, you are driving t-posts in addition to other type posts, then you can get a t-post driver attachment for the Shaver.

I will be on hilly ground, can it be easily adjusted to plumb? Any one in southern WV have one of these and been happy? I think Shaver has been around sometime so they must stand behind their products?

The one that I have (HD-10) has 15 degrees of adjustment in two directions. Additionally, you could adjust with your top link but it probably won't be necessary.

Neil

reasley

 

[reasley]

reasley; RickB brings up a good point about the return "dump" hose. Does a 4300 have that large of a hyd oil filler neck to be able to stick that return hose into? I mention the hyd. oil filler neck because that is where my dad's HD-8 return line dumps into. His return hose has probably at least a 1" I.D..

Did the salesman know that this Shaver HD-10 was going to be installed on a small CUT tractor?​

I have some "jerry-rigged" ideas to make it work(pressure line), but I want to see if the JD guys on this site will reply with a better solution, first. Meanwhile, you might want to investigate that return "dump" line situation(as RickB mentioned).

Good evening, Catman --

Didn't see your post until I just replied to Neil.

On the return line, the HD-10 that I bought was used and had been used on a Kubota. The return line fitting is regular pipe thread I think and is the same diameter (at least 1") as the hydraulic fill on my 4300, though the threads areen't the same. I have the line in my car and will have a new fitting installed tomorrow for my application.

Since I bought it used, I took the liberty of calling Shaver's tech support guys (those guys are extremely nice and helpful) prior to going to look at the unit (2 hours away). I knew that the HD-10 had a stated GPM of 12 and had a Cat 2 attachment (my 4300 is 8.8 GPM and a Cat I). They told me that the GPM was not a problem at all -- that the ram would just rise a bit slower and I probably wouldn't even notice it. They also said that the Cat 2 attachment could be easily modified to work with Cat 1 tractors, so I spent a couple of hours today making some Cat 1 brackets and welded them to the attachment -- works great and the Cat 2 pins are still intact if needed.

If I've researched it correctly (and all 3 are viable options) then here's what I've found as options for the pressure line for the post driver:

1. Add a power beyond kit at around $300 for parts.
2. Disconnect one of the FEL's pressure ports and plug in there, and tie the SCV lever to activate just that port (unsure if this causes problems).
3. Connect the third valve on my current FEL SCV block and use one of those ports in a dedicated fashion (i.e., always on).

If your jerry-rigged solution is 2 or a derivation of 3, I'd love to hear about the potential problems, if any with that alternative.

 

[MikePA]

The return line fitting is regular pipe thread I think and is the same diameter (at least 1") as the hydraulic fill on my 4300, though the threads areen't the same.

A friend modified the fill cap on my NH TC25D to include a 45 degree elbow and a male quick connect. Where the fill hole is located was difficult to access. It was OK for adding fluid (with a funnel) but not good for a return line. I added a female quick connect to the dump hose on my driver resulting in a 'no spill' solution. The factory return line on my Worksaver did not work well since there was no way to secure it. Your threaded return line sounds like a good solution.

 

[reasley]

Good morning, Mike --

I had always heard that the quick connects limit down force on the post drivers by restricting flow release but evidently not because I have read many of your posts (thank you) about post drivers and you are not exhibitng that problem.

I went by JD anda couple of other places this morning on the way to work and have found out that the threads on everything are metric and, of course, can't find anything locally, so I am on my way on-line to MARYLAND METRICS 'HOME PAGE' to see what I can find . . .

 

[CATMAN]

reasley: Yes, #2 was one of the options. My thoughts were to tilt your forks(post storage) back to the desired angle, then use a log chain from loader boom to fork mast to hold that position. Shutoff the tractor, release any hydraulic pressure in the "bucket curl" circuit. {Note: keep the loader boom up so log chain has tension on it.} Unhook both "bucket curl" hydraulic hoses and use one of those ports for the post driver. If one was to go this route, I would assembly a male to male jumper(or female to female) fitting to tie the two "bucket curl" hoses together to try to eliminate a "hydraulic lock" situation that might occur in those two hoses and thus it would make it difficult to reattach UNLESS the forks were in the perfect "neutral" position. Also, the sun can warm up cylinders and hydraulic oil thru-out the day and make a "closed hydraulic loop" even have some positive pressure. One would have to "crack" a fitting to release that positive pressure.

Currently, It sounds to me like you would be willing to spend the money to install a better system than this description.​

I also had another idea that envolved hydraulic shutoff valves on the same "bucket curl" circuit(tee'd in at quick couplings) but the cost would be too high for a "jerry-rigged" or temporary project/usage, I believe.

 

[CATMAN]

Looks like you got some good advise on the Hyd. section. I did think of one more issue, when that HD-10 ram comes down quickly and the hyd. oil rushes back to the sump/oil filler tube is that 4300 hyd. VENT system have the capacity to let the "displaced air" inside the sump escape quickly enough? I won't want those pressure pulsations working on all those lip-type seals in the low pressure side of the hyd. system. I may be overthinking this, but this tractor is a lot smaller than my Dad's 4020(95 HP) and these little issues can arise.

 

[reasley]

Thanks, Catman, for the reply. Today, I got enough fittings to do the FEL circuit-to-post driver contingent on what I found out today on this site. When I got home, I disconnected one of the FEL curl circuits and applied pressure to the joystick for that circuit and could tell that the hydraulic system was under load. I didn't expect that -- I figured that with the circuit dead-ended, it wouldn't do that so next, I disconnected both of the curl circuits -- same thing on load. Maybe it would have behaved differently if the circuit had been completed to the post driver which is itself an open center circuit?

So after that very fast experiment, I figured that I should probably just get the Power Beyond kit and be done with it. However, after looking at the diagram again closer (see attachment), it appears that the power beyond for the 4000 series is mounted directly above the hydraulic fill which is needed for the fluid dump for the post driver. Any confirmation from someone that has a 4000 series CUT?

So, that's where I am right now. Again, help is appreciated!

 

[MikePA]

I had always heard that the quick connects limit down force on the post drivers by restricting flow release but evidently not because I have read many of your posts (thank you) about post drivers and you are not exhibitng that problem.

Good morning,

Attached are 2 pictures. One of the modified fill plug and one of the original return line on the Worksaver. As you can see, the original end of the return line had it's own flow restriction issues.

 

[Jim_Fisher]

Thanks, Catman, for the reply. Today, I got enough fittings to do the FEL circuit-to-post driver contingent on what I found out today on this site. When I got home, I disconnected one of the FEL curl circuits and applied pressure to the joystick for that circuit and could tell that the hydraulic system was under load. I didn't expect that -- I figured that with the circuit dead-ended, it wouldn't do that so next, I disconnected both of the curl circuits -- same thing on load. Maybe it would have behaved differently if the circuit had been completed to the post driver which is itself an open center circuit?

So after that very fast experiment, I figured that I should probably just get the Power Beyond kit and be done with it. However, after looking at the diagram again closer (see attachment), it appears that the power beyond for the 4000 series is mounted directly above the hydraulic fill which is needed for the fluid dump for the post driver. Any confirmation from someone that has a 4000 series CUT?

So, that's where I am right now. Again, help is appreciated!

The power beyond on my 4300 has an extension on the fill tube. Not sure if the current kit has the same setup, since the one on my 2000 4300 was transfered from my 1998 4200.

Another thing of which you need to be aware is that when you use the power beyond, you divert the flow of hydraulic pressure from your three point hitch to the implement that you power.

Using a backhoe, this isn't an issue since you won't need the three point hitch.

With a wood splitter, the return line is routed back to the three point so that both the splitter and the three point will function.

With a post driver (mine is a Shaver HD8) routing the return line to the three point isn't an option. I mounted a manual diverter valve (about $45.00 from Surplus Center) on the post driver. After I have positioned the tractor and driver, I switch the diverter valve and drive the post. When I'm done driving the post, I switch the diverter back to the three point hitch circuit.

The return line from the post driver is routed directly back to the hydraulic fill, using a fitting that my dealer supplied when I bought the post driver. The fitting has the same threads as the fill plug. With the extension on the fill, there is ample room to reach the fill without the power beyond mounting hardware getting in the way.

If you can do without the loader, you could certainly run a line from the dual selective control valve back to the post driver and save the expense of the power beyond. I don't think that it would be practical to leave the loader on the tractor and switch hoses every time that you want to move the tractor, but if you removed the loader and left the driver hooked up it should be workable.

 

[reasley]

Good morning,

Attached are 2 pictures. One of the modified fill plug and one of the original return line on the Worksaver. As you can see, the original end of the return line had it's own flow restriction issues.

Thanks so much for the reminder of your connection "port," Mike! I had "locked in my mind" the notion that I could either 1) find the proper thread size for the hydraulic fill hole and make an adapter or 2) rethread the fill hole to 1" pipe thread (not an attractive option, for multiple reasons, but definitely would solve the problem).

Your pictures today reminded me that I had seen your drain setup before -- great idea! How firm does the fitting feel in the drain hole after being threaded like that? Also, I am assuming 3/4" pipe thread, correct?

 

[reasley]

The power beyond on my 4300 has an extension on the fill tube. Not sure if the current kit has the same setup, since the one on my 2000 4300 was transfered from my 1998 4200.

Another thing of which you need to be aware is that when you use the power beyond, you divert the flow of hydraulic pressure from your three point hitch to the implement that you power.

Using a backhoe, this isn't an issue since you won't need the three point hitch.

With a wood splitter, the return line is routed back to the three point so that both the splitter and the three point will function.

With a post driver (mine is a Shaver HD8) routing the return line to the three point isn't an option. I mounted a manual diverter valve (about $45.00 from Surplus Center) on the post driver. After I have positioned the tractor and driver, I switch the diverter valve and drive the post. When I'm done driving the post, I switch the diverter back to the three point hitch circuit.

The return line from the post driver is routed directly back to the hydraulic fill, using a fitting that my dealer supplied when I bought the post driver. The fitting has the same threads as the fill plug. With the extension on the fill, there is ample room to reach the fill without the power beyond mounting hardware getting in the way.

If you can do without the loader, you could certainly run a line from the dual selective control valve back to the post driver and save the expense of the power beyond. I don't think that it would be practical to leave the loader on the tractor and switch hoses every time that you want to move the tractor, but if you removed the loader and left the driver hooked up it should be workable.

Good evening, Jim --

Reply in order of your comments:

In the factory picture, there doesn't appear to be an extension now nor does there appear to be one in the enclosed attached picture that I found on-line last night. That unit also seems to be the same as the one currently available.

I found out about the diversion of power today when I used the post driver for the first time!

Since I don't have an adapter yet for the fill hole, I simply took the 1" return pipe, choked it down to 3/4" pipe thread and put it loosely in the fill hole -- worked just fine after I secured it -- lost a bit of fluid prior to doing that.

What I did on the pressure side was what has been discussed earlier in the thread -- I used the "down curl" port after I had lifted the forklits up at an upward angle to hold poles and strapped the forklift to the front guard to keep it from tilting. This seems to work well since the angle of the forks should not vary during post driving operations.

 

[MikePA]

How firm does the fitting feel in the drain hole after being threaded like that? Also, I am assuming 3/4" pipe thread, correct?

It's all solid. Since the return hose is heavy, I zip tie it to the ROPs about a foot away from the fitting so the fitting isn't supporting the weight of the hose. Yep, 3/4".