Power Trac and the law

   / Power Trac and the law #1  

Rick_Taylor

Silver Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2003
Messages
109
Location
Decatur, TX
Tractor
Power Trac PT-425, Kubota L4330HSTC Kubota RTV
I've mentioned this briefly in the past by I'd like some others opinions. I'm very concerned about PT's lack of documentation, especially on the attachments. I got a fairly decent book with the tractor but none of my attachments came with so much as a word of instruction or "BE CAREFUL", etc. In this day and age of gazillion dollar lawsuits and ambulance chasing lawyers I'm very concerned some fool will hurt himself badly and sue PT out of existance. Obviously we all (or most) know it's not smart to say get off tractor with trencher or stump grinder running. BUT! 1. There is no seat switch to cut the machine off without an operators presense; and 2. You were not furnished anything such as real operating instructions or the usual "Ya'll be careful" that comes with almost everything nowdays. Can you imagine how that would go over in court? I have asked several folks at PT if they have any printed matter covering any of the implements. The answers ranged from "No" to "I think I saw something" and "I'll send it to you". So far, nothing. Are there any lawyers in this forum? Can you give any insite on the possible legal responsibities of a US corporation manufacturing a potentially lethal product (if used VERY incorrectly)?

I'm not flaming PT here. I was just very suprised when I received my tractor and attachments and am still concerned. As I said, I brought this to their attention but they seemed very inattentive. I hope their attitude doesn't end up biting them.
 
   / Power Trac and the law #2  
I've mentioned before that I was surprised at the lack of documentation... especially with todays's sue-happy society. But I am also refreshed by it. There are too many warning stickers for the obvious. Take a pitch fork, for example. Should there be a warning sticker with a picture of some farmer with a pitch fork sticking out of his rear end and a big red circle and cross bar? It gets ridiculous, after a while.

People do stupid things no matter how many warning stickers, printed instructions and red Xs you put on them. I've done stupid things too. If the product was defective, I'd imagine it would be the fault of the company that made it. If the product was mis-used, it would be the fault of the person mis-using it. So is a mower deck defective if you can stick your foot under it? Probably not. What if the mower deck is raised 4 feet off the ground and left running... is the product defective or was it being mis-used?... It depends on the jury.

I do wonder what kind of liability PT is putting on themselves by not having detailed operating instructions. I wonder if it is any more or less VS actually putting something in writing?

Good questions, Rick. It should spark some lively discussions.
 
   / Power Trac and the law #3  
I agree with Mossroad about it being refreshing that PT comes with so few stickers on it. On the other hand I would like an operators manual of care and upkeep for the attachments. The tractor is ok on manuals but even that could be improved for care and upkeep.
For the most part I have learned how to care for my machine through you folks on TBN.
PJ
 
   / Power Trac and the law #4  
Rick:
I am a lawyer, and over the years have done a fair amount of products liability work, primarily representing manufacturers. So, let me state based on about 30 years experience: "I dunno." /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Certainly we are in a litigious society. The law regarding the duties of a manufacturer vary from state to state, so my following comments are general, at best. There are several theories of law on which a manufacturer may be held liable. The most common in modern litigation is the concept of strict liability in tort. The essence of that body of law is that a manufacturer is liable if a product is defective when introduced into the stream of commerce, posing an unreasonable risk of injury, and in fact causes the injury complained of by the user. The defect can be in the design or manufacture of the machine, or in the instructions or warnings provided with the machine.
The lack of extensive instructions with Power Trac machines certainly could be argued as rendering a machine defective if an owner or other user does something with the machine that causes harm. The resulting suit will contain issues as to whether instructions or warnings were needed, whether any instruction or warning would have prevented the injury, what the wording of an adequate warning might have been, etc. In most jurisdiciotns, experts would testify on both sides, and a jury would decide whether the machine was defective and whether the defect caused harm. Misuse of a product generally insulates the manufacturer from liability unless the misuse is forseeable and not instructed or warned against.
There are also legal theories involving claims of breach of warranty - either written into the contract or required by law - and claims of negligence by the manufacturer. It is an oversimplification to say that the proofs and issues under the separate theories are the same, but often all three will be claimed, and the facts to be proved are whether or not it was a good machine, and whether instructions are needed or, if provided, whether they are adequate.
Despite the suits that get wide publicity, manufacturers do not automatically lose lawsuits. I haven't seen statistics recently, but I suspect that fewer cases are actually brought to suit than you might suspect based on news reports, and the majority of plaintiffs lose or receive minimal settlements. Moreover, most manufacturers of any substance carry sufficient insurance to ensure that they will be defended by capable counsel if they are sued, and the insurer will pay any judgment which may be entered. Obviously a manufacturer could be destroyed by a string of litigation losses, but should generally be adequately insured to withstand even a significant loss in court. I have no idea what coverage PT may have, but certainly hope it is adequate.
The best defense against products liability claims is to make good products. Although I agree with Paul that I'd like some literature with the implements to advise how to service them and when, I really haven't had a problem figuring it out other than the location of a stray zerk fitting or two. I haven't had any problem recognizing reasonable limits for use of any of the implements. For instance, my posthole auger can tear someone's arm or head off and I don't need a book to tell me that. If someone is injured, will a jury conclude that the operator needed written warning not to engage the machine with a person close? I hope not, but if it happens, that's what the insurance is for.
So, I don't think anyone can answer your question. It was refreshing to me to find a manufacturer who expected me to have tome intelligence and common sense, and when I hit my head on the canopy in their shop, they didn't go into apologetic spasms - Terry said: "You'll learn not to do that." Although I haven't completely learned, and still hit it occasionally, I do appreciate Terry crediting me with that much intelligence.
 
   / Power Trac and the law #5  
Charlie,
Very well said, thank you.
PJ
 
   / Power Trac and the law #6  
Great post on the liability questions. I also have to way in by saying the lack of kill switches is one of the reasons I went with the PT425. Modern equipment has become so overburdened with safety features that half the down time seems to be attributed to the safety features. I have put myself in more dangerous situations to work around poorly designed safety features that interfere with the equipments use.

Also I would postulate that PT doesn't have a very adequate insurance shield for liability suits. The lack of warning labels and safety switches means that there isn't an insurance company auditor making "suggestions". My experience with them is that an active insurance company will force the manufacturer to keep adding labels and safety features until they feel the equipment is bullet proof in court. The performance of the equipment and success of the manufacturer doesn't way in. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
   / Power Trac and the law
  • Thread Starter
#7  
I think maybe some of you missed my point. I am not in favor of stickers, endless pages in a manual pointing out the obvious safety practices, stupid seat switches, etc. My point was that those pesky items DO have at least some clout in court. If they didn't, we wouldn't see them on EVERYTHING we buy. Corporations in the free world don't just put stuff on for grins. They do it because they feel they have to; either their legal staff or their insurance company is telling them to. Why, because even if a small number, someone may actually win one of those stupid suits (the coffee's too hot) and the resulting publicity is much worse than the monetary loss. I'm just suprised with PT's attitude of 'the hell with it, we ain't gonna'. I'm sorry but I have a pretty good investment in this thing and some operation and upkeep instructions do not seem out of line. Am I supposed to call Terry every time I have some type of question? I too am fairly mechanical and so far have been able to deal with 'small' problems' like having my PT break in half, having to replace a hydraulic motor on my stump grinder, a spindle on the mower deck, and a seat that felt like sitting on a rock. Was the spindle problem caused by not knowing for over a year that they wanted to be lubed every 8 hours? I don't know, but the excuse about travelling from TX to VA for 'training' while trying to run a business here just doesn't cut it. When you pays your money you expect a few things in return. A capable machine that does as advertised is one. I got that, it's exceeded everything I expected. But also some documentation on it's use and maintenance is also expected, especially since the user is expected to do all the troubleshooting, repair, and preventive maintenance.
 
   / Power Trac and the law #8  
Rick:
I certainly agree that the machines, particular the attachments, need some instructions and parts lists. The "training" which I didn't have time to take, may be fine, but doesn't replace a reference book.
As for the stickers, etc., you're also right that insurers and lawyers urge manufacturers to warn their consumers, to the extent that on my new Exmark mower I really have to hunt to find actual information buried in the "operating" manual. In my experience, surprisingly few cases actually turn on what the stickers or warnings in a manual may say, but enough do that I certainly wouldn't advise a manufacturing client not to put them on a machine and in the manual(s). Although PT's dearth of unnecessary warnings is actually refreshing, their response to a threat of litigation in Sedgewood's case was far from constructive. So, perhaps your concern about their litigation naivete is well placed. But the fact remains that we have been able to buy really useful, even ingenious, machines for relatively low prices. If PT were to go under, I think I could keep my 1845 working, although proprietary stuff such as the brake tender might pose some challenges.
I don't suggest that manuals shouldn't be written. I'd like to have them. Nor do I contend that a warning in a manual won't help if they issue one. It might. If they do create more and better manuals, however, I hope they concentrate on maintenance and repair first. (And, if you're right that they aren't adequately insured, remedy that even before the manuals.)
 
   / Power Trac and the law #9  
It seems to me that this machine draws the diy'er, the self reliant or maybe just a certain kind of individual that is just tired of paying for all the "overhead" associated with any commercial product out there...
I agree that operating documentation is lacking and even when schematics/plumbing diagrams are provided, I seriously doubt their accuracy... But fortunately or as luck would have it, these things are simple enough to do on the fly for yourself ... again, part of the allure.
...Not only do I not have a dealer to call, but, I don't have to call a dealer... I still win /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I must admit, too, that when I sat down to make up my equipt. list, I factored their disappearance in to my list... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / Power Trac and the law #10  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( But also some documentation on it's use and maintenance is also expected, especially since the user is expected to do all the troubleshooting, repair, and preventive maintenance. )</font>

Rick, As I sit here agreeing with your thoughts, it occurs to me this is intentional i.e., In this way they limit their appeal to experienced or "mature"(lots of machine experience) users who are comfortable with the "simple" mechanics and in most likelyhood will almost never call back with "nit-picky" stuff at least not more than once or twice...
This way they can "manage" their growth in demand for machines, but not increase their support overhead... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

...Think of the genius of this marketing approach ... their thoughts might go something like this...If the lack of dealer support doesn't "filter" out a "high maintenance" or "litigious"
customer, then the guy (gal) that finally makes it to our door is the guy (or gal) we want for a customer. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

OR

Am I just "reading" too much into bad support? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

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