Private school, Home schooling, etc.

[knucklehead]

I searched on home schooling and found a few references, and some discussion of schools in general, like the Childproof Locks thread (~Oct 2001 in this forum). Anyone want to talk, ask questions, or anything else about this subject? Any others out there, home teaching, private schooling, or just involved parents?

We were agin' homeschooling as isolationist at first. We wanted the boys to be salt and light in the world. Now it's been 9 years, and lo and behold, our boys are not bush queer wierdos who suffer from a lack of socialization. What's the deal with this socialization objection, anyway? I have an answer, but I'd like to hear from others. I'll entertain all views, and attempt to answer all questions - no need to tread lightly, as I may not, either.

My wife spends 3 to 4 hours daily, 4 to 5 days per week teaching our two boys (9 & 13). We start in September, and are done in May. They can cover about a year and a half of curriculum per year, depending on the subject. My oldest had 8.5 high school credits at age 12. He will probably graduate in two or three more years at age 15, depending on what he wants to study, with 25 or more credits. We don't push hard, but we do expect performance at their abilities.

We hope to have started home training in some trade or business by their high school graduation, and pursue formal vocational (aka technical) training before college, according to their desires and abilities. I tell others that they can then freely pursue the college training of their dreams, and become electricians, cooks or carpenters with a superior ability to discuss pre-cambrian archaeology or medival art. /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif Assuming they choose college, which we don't think may be the value it's cracked up to be; which is yet another topic for discussion.

Home schoolers, stand up and be counted! Objecting parties, present arms! /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

 

[TAB]

Mark it is great to hear from involved caring parents. I think parents must take an active role in education. I have been in the classroom 24 years as a vocational teacher. The Intermediate school district I work for provides special ed and vocational for all the school systems in our county (40,000 pop.). Public, private and home school kids have remained pretty equal in both attitude and academics over the years. Lack of social skills is definately a problem, but it is a problem I have seen equally from all 3 groups. In my class I often have jr. & sr. boys and girls from 6 districts plus some home schoolers. It takes the home schoolers a little longer to get to know all of the rest because they often didn't know anyone before they arrived, but it doesn't take long for them to catch up. The drawbacks to homeschooling are similar to public and private. Often when a student does not want to work to their ability, the parent doesn't want to fight the fight and the child learns that they don't have to perform. Many parents send their kid to school and feel the school is 100% responsible for the kids survival, food, socialization, health, sexual training, etc, etc. If you and your wife have ignited a fire in your kids that allows them to want to learn they will be successful in life.

 

[knucklehead]

Right on the money, Tom - I ranted a bit - maybe too much, about this over in the union thread. I hope anyone who reads it does so carefully and sees it is clearly the parents who are fumbling the ball, so to speak. I have a great many things to say about our schools - but mostly about the institutionalized thinking and bureacracy of them. We know some home school parents who aren't really moving things along as they should. We are talking to them, and they are attempting to respond (they like to play in all seasons); but I wouldn't think any better would be done in an institution. Here's why:

Our main concern is the individual; an institution simply cannot be devoted to that and survive as an institution (which I contend has become their main focus). Teachers are on the front line in this, being pulled in several directions by irresponsible parents and bumbling bureacrats alike. We sort of evolved into our present way of thinking via our understanding of our responsibility to train the boys according to their own gifts, talents, and learning styles. It was our determination, once we developed that conviction, that an institution could not carry this out properly. Some may, ours wouldn't.

I should go spend time with them now - good talking to you, and I'd like to know more about habitat development - we're studying the ways our whitetails move using cover, and finding bedding and watering areas - we're clearing brush, and don't want to discourage them from using traditional paths and areas.

 

[PitbullMidwest]

Hey Knucklehead, what curriculum are you using? Our kids attend Burlington Christian School using A.C.E. (now called School of Tomorrow) and have many friends who home school. Most are using either ACE or Abeka. As far as socialization, our school offers field trips and sports to the Home Schoolers Association and they also plan their own events but to my knowledge it is not a requirement by the goverment. Has this become an issue where you're at?

BTW, a young lady from our school duel enrolled at the public high school her senior year to take a higher math class. She went to her counselor for help applying for collage scholarships and was told that the "poor education" that private and home schooled kids receive would haunt her for the rest of her life. She is now a cancer research scientist, imagine what she could have have accomplished with a "quality" public education. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Glad to hear that your kids are doing so well.

 

[Ledgemere Farm]

My sister-in-law homeschools and is doing fine with it. I was skeptical of it at first ( I went to UMF to be a teacher, so I ws brainwashed), but I have have pretty much come full circle. Now I think it is the Public Schools that need work and I don't mean giving them more money. Teachers these days get no respect, be it from the kids or kids parents. Everything is ALWAYs the teacher's fault. There was an incident in last year where a teenage girl said she was "touched inappropriately " by her teacher. As it turned out, she was lying, and was proved to be a liar, yet the teacher's reputation was effectually ruined. He was essentially, "guilty until proven innocent". I don't believe in physically disciplining students through corporal punishment, but I think there is room for harsher disciplinary practices. Phew! OK, there's my $0.02. Keep up the good work!

 

[Mosey]

My 6 year old twins (boy and girl) just started kindergarten at the local public school this week. They went to pre-school at our Christian church last year. But, 4 or 5 years ago I never thought this would be happening. My wife is a stay at home mom and we were convinced to do home schooling. But, economics changed our minds. We realized that unless we wanted to spend the next 20 years barely scraping by, one income just wasn’t going to cut it, unless I worked 10-12 hours a day 6 days a week which is no good either. So, she will stay at home 1 more year while the kids are in half day kindergarten, then next year she’ll go back to work. At least this way the kids were raised at home for the first 6 years, rather than in a day care center, and I have been able to spend a lot of time with them.

Public schooling can be successful if the parents stay involved. But, as has already been stated, that’s not usually the case. The school invited the parents to stay in the classroom with the kids on the first day of school. There are 28 kids in the class and my wife was the only parent there! I know many of the other parents and they don’t all both work. To many parents, the public school system is just a place to dump the kids off for the day and I think that’s part of the reason public schools get such a bad rap. The twins teacher made a big point of how important it is for parents to get involved. They asked parents to volunteer so a parent will be in the classroom to help out once a week, including the dads. I’m planning to reserve vacation time to do that.

We’ll be sure and apply some things we’ve learned from other parents who have raised kids successfully. One is to make sure at least one of us is home when the kids get home from school, even when they get older. Another is to be very aware of who their friends are and make sure they’re not getting into the wrong crowd.

I think any type of schooling can be successful if done right and can be a failure of done wrong. In my own personal experience within my family and my wife’s family, I’ve seen a public schooled kid end up on drugs and I’ve seen a home school kid get married within 3 months of leaving home to the first girl he met at his first job. I went to public school, never caused any trouble, went to college and ended up fine. My wife went to a private school and gave her parents he!! for a while (dated bikers, carneys, etc), never went to college (which she regrets to this day), had one failed marriage, and finally ended up fine – a better person than I am now.

One question I’ve always had about home schooling is how well the kids transition to college. Being schooled at home by your mother is a totally different environment than sitting in a college class of 50 or 100 other students being taught by some professor who cares much more about his research than his teaching.

 

[knucklehead]

Hi guys - been out painting trim, then wifey decided it was hot and we needed to go to Applebees. Then went shopping as I am wearing out shirts.

Pit - I do wish you'd fill out yer profile, but I respect you're right to privacy - after trying several things and much conversation with others (we have a loose network of parents), my wife has decided to use Saxon math, Apologia science, and Beautiful Feet for history, along with others for spelling, grammar, etc.. There is also a local woman who has put together a lesson on literature, Maine studies, geography, and so forth while teaching her granddaughter - she's been asked to publish it, but it takes a lot of $$$ up front, so we just share for now. So I guess the answer to your question is we do our own curriculum ( I need to say - my wife does the curriculum). As I detailed to Jeff in the "union" thread, we are associated with <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.narsonline.com>North Atlantic Regional School</A>, for consultation and also review and awarding of high school credits.

The socialization issue I mentioned is due to it being the first question out of non-home schooler's mouths when they find we teach at home. I always ask the person to explain what they mean, even though I know it's basically an innocent question. The standard reply is that kids NEED to be with others their own age - to which I also ask why, with a smile on my face. Where I'm leading them is that the concept of age segregation is a function of the institutional structure, not a necessity of a properly-enriched education. And I further contend that it's institutional thinking that stifles our kids' individual creativity. My kids, and really every kid, can be comfortable around people from infants to elderly - until they are "socialized" out of it. Ever notice someone remarking about how good an older (or younger) child "gets along" with those not his or her own age? It has become a rare and therefore remarkable thing to encounter a person who relates to others across age boundaries. Multiply this effect through differences in the sexes, races, creeds, and religions, and you may be led to draw your own conclusions about the effects of institutional thinking on our society. That's why I love to talk about socialization!

IH - ditto on the brainwashing - I hear ya. Hey, most of my classmate buddies went to UMF to be teachers - private mail me and we'll swap names. I always liked visitng UMF between my Freshman year and my Freshman year at UMO (Short explanation: bad study habits and alcohol /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif, followed by 15 months of paper mill wood yard therapy, a return to practicing my faith, and a second chance up at YooEmZero). I thought UMF's Stone Hall on High Street was absolutely too good to be true at the time. It's still funny, but I wish I had those brain cells back.

Mosey - As you can see from the above, I was not a shining example of good study habits. My wife, Mrs. Smarty Pants, is the opposite. I now recognize that it takes good work habits to achieve in college and in the workforce. My kids are motivated to use their time wisely, as they can finish before lunch and spend the rest of the day on their own interests. They have learned to find the information they need via a wide variety of resources. While I agree with (and have personally experienced) the situation you presented regarding college being frustrating, I imagine it as no sweat for someone who is used to digging for their own answers, as are our boys. The institutional training the vast majority of our kids get actually puts them at the disadvantage, IMHO. We are considering home-based college, as not only do the institutions demand huge sums for increasingly deteriorating educational quality, they also waste a lot of time. But that decision will be shared with the boys, when the time comes.

You are right on target with the parental comments. Although it initially sounded as though you were stating that you thought most homeschooling parents don't act responsibly, I believe you intended to voice concern about parental irresponsibility in general. I agree, and would say that encouragement and "empowerment" (Dang, I hate that word) is needed in reminding parents of their responsibility. They've been institutionalized and socialized into thinking the school knows best and they shouldn't question things. I'll say to you what I said to Jeff in the other thread: homeschooling is managing your kids' education. You are the contractor; you can do some work, or subcontract it out as much as you decide. But you are in control. It sounds like you already understand that. I would add that parents that are involved in their kids' lives understand that very well, too....like homeschoolers. I would not lament or regret one minute the decision to allow the public school to do some of your work - you need to stay on top of it, as you undounbtedly know. You may face challenges, depending on your personal moral leanings, as unfortunately there are some schools who have decided that it is also their responsibility to teach moral behavor to the kids - a result of parental irresponsibility, but wrong nonetheless (they're "enabling" irresponsible parents /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif). You can be sure of one thing: it ain't gonna be the Ten Commamdments.

I absolutely love to hear parents ***** and then ask them what they are doing about it...."I pay taxes!", they say. My answer: "O.K., then you give me $10,000 and I'll sell you a rusty Yugo, and we'll see how long you stay uninvolved". That's not aimed at any of you, just a little separate rant.

Oh, and regarding leaving home and marrying the first set of long eyelashes they see, we started 'way back with Bambi explaining how emotions can lead you astray - in fact, we still use the term Twitterpated to refer to the hormonal surges felt by members of the opposite sex toward each other. We are teaching our boys that a physical relationship is very special, to be shared with one person only, after marriage (and that person needs to be a Godly woman, not merely a Christian), and that real men respect women, even if a particular woman doesn't want that respect. Don't know how much more we can do, except show them WWII venereal disease movies. Yuk!

 

[knucklehead]

Mosey - I forgot to say I like your signature.

My favorite bumper sticker:

"Maine Native: Outnumbered but not outsmarted."


My favorite response to Mainers being portrayed as slow or ignorant:

"We don't know too much up here, just the difference between our wants and our needs."

 

[Mosey]

Mark,

I can't disagree with a lot of what you say. However, I still consider the best part of my life to be my childhood. It's for various reasons, but the main reason is that I had a lot of fun. Once a person grows up, it's harder to have fun because one is required to work, deal with responsibilities, etc.

My Dad always used to say "Little people like little people" and I believe that's true. Kids like to be around kids their own age. Even as we get older, we relate to other people close to our age much better than people of other generations. It's one of the reasons I don't have a lot of friends. Since most of our current activities center around the kids, who are 6, and the parents of most kids close to their age are much younger than my wife and I (we're over 40 and most other parents are under 30), we just don't have the same interests as most other parents we meet. For example, we actually know where our kids are at all times. They think we're overly protective and paranoid.

I just think kids should be allowed to be kids and have fun while they grow up. You only get to be a kid once, you can't go back (well, most of us I guess, my father in law never grew up!). My wife's nephew was sent to a Montessori school before starting school in a public school. The poor kid didn't know how to have fun. At age 5 he had never sat on a swing and didn't know how to swing! He was expected to read his birthday cards in front of everyone at his birthday party at age 6. What fun is that? Let him open his presents and play with the new toys I say!

I just hope home schooling isn't pushing the kids too much and taking the fun out of childhood.

 

[knucklehead]

Dan - Amen on childhood - that's why I never left /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif/w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

Good comments - I'll be honest, we think about those things. We talked to our parents (they were concerned as you are), other parents, and our pediatrician (also a homeschooler) about it. We're big on community - once abundant, now gone - it's what we all briefly felt when last September's attack happened - no age, race, or religion barriers - like those partially encouraged as unintended consequences of institutional training. We practice community every day with our neighbors, and others via phone and face contact. Older folks get looked after, ideas get discussed, problems get solved, wood gets cut, tools get loaned, repaired, and traded, beef, pork and vegetables get raised and shared. The Dads even get a chance to bond a little around a little piano moving project or something, and check out their own ideas and stuff......like how to live with a girl /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif (Short rant: I love the busy, snooty people who are rushing around saving the planet but don't know their next door neighbors).

I believe most homeschoolers think about the things you mentioned, as a component of their deep concern for their kids. As we have two boys, they are best buddies, even with the 9 & 13 split. Also, they see others regularly (weekly or more frequently). I also believe there is less to be gotten from peer contact than we all think, and more from family. This herding of kids together is relatively new and different, the "norm" being closer to what we currently practice right up to, what - the 20's? 30's? 40's? Less than a hundred years, anyway. The Industrial Revolution and subsequent removal of Dads from the home all day had some effect, but there are ways around that.

Kids are creative and highly adaptable, as I mentioned earlier, until they are taught otherwise by parents or an institution. Your unfortunate example backs this up - it appears (and I really can't judge) that it is outside influences that have resulted in what you portray to be a problem. I know I'm rocking boats, and a bit off course here, but we are honestly shocked at infants being put into day care. The first few years are crucial to the formation of their personality, and family bonding. Why would anyone want that to be done with a stranger? Same with peer interaction. Plus, what did you experience during recess and on the bus - the only two places kids get unstructured trime with each other? By the time I was in High School, I was asked to ride the back of the bus and keep the cigarettes, joints, and fights in check. And this is in rural Maine in the mid seventies! My boys will skip that kind of peer interaction, spank you very much (Oooh! Another subject! /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif).

If you're talking about the "down time", the laying on backs and picking shapes out of clouds, or watching ants build hills, then I'm right with you. Hard to do that while standing in line in the AM to get onto the school bus, lining up to get off, lining up to go into school, to go between classes, lunch, in & out of recess a couple times, then home. What's the deal with lines nowadays, anyway? Reminds me of Pink Floyd and The Wall (not their best effort). My kids get way more chance to express themselves as kids than the kids in the concentration camps....Sorry......No, I ain't. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

<font color=blue>Since most of our current activities center around the kids, who are 6, and the parents of most kids close to their age are much younger than my wife and I (we're over 40 and most other parents are under 30), we just don't have the same interests as most other parents we meet.</font color=blue>

Wow - we're alike in that! Mine were 5 & 9 when I turned 40, and we found the same things with other parents - we did a lot of YMCA sports when they were younger, and we tried, but with similar results. We always had friends who were a bit older than us, and their kids were way older than ours - in fact, they babysat a little. We're friends with some in their 50's who have kids in their late 20's, who are also good friends. One of the nicest things we have done is a swap babysitting with other parents, which gives the kids play time, and eliminates sitting cost.

<font color=blue>For example, we actually know where our kids are at all times. They think we're overly protective and paranoid.</font color=blue> - Yeah, I bet they don't now, with all the media attention on abductions.

If I haven't sufficiently answered your questions, please "hit me harder". I think we agree, only maybe we are twisting the "cause & effect" order of a couple things around. I agree kids gravitate toward others their own age. But I don't believe more is better, regardless of quality. And unsupervised is much worse (which is what they get in the schools). I think we may agree here...from your comments about the attention you give your kids. I believe the negative experiences we both have had with adults outside our age range is a sign of their inflexibility, selfishness, and stunted social skills, partially conditioned into them by the institution of public schools.

We as a nation take better care of young plants than our kids. If we treated our tomatoes the same way, we'd throw them out in a pile with each other, roots bare, in March, and proclaim this to be the best thing we know how to do. It ain't with termaters, it ain't with kids. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif