JackRobin
Bronze Member
We did private label the V-Twin for Onan for the past couple of years.
Jack Gawecki
Robin America, Inc.
Technical Support Dept.
Jack Gawecki
Robin America, Inc.
Technical Support Dept.
PT425 with Robin Engine?
- Thread starter blackwell
- Start date
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ernemats
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2002
- Messages
- 1,057
- Location
- Bolivar, pa.
- Tractor
- power trac 422, and agco-allis 5660, ,1845 power trac Greenworks CRT 426
Jack:
What is Robins opinion in using synthetic oil such as amsoil in your 22 hp engine and if ok what weight. My pt422 has about 560 hours on it and does not require any oil added between oil changes. I have thought about trying a synthetic but I am a little hesitant about changing .
What is Robins opinion in using synthetic oil such as amsoil in your 22 hp engine and if ok what weight. My pt422 has about 560 hours on it and does not require any oil added between oil changes. I have thought about trying a synthetic but I am a little hesitant about changing .
Schultz
Gold Member
Hi Jack
Did you ever get a reply from your engineers about testing the Robin engines to the same specification or testing method as the Kohler? As I said before it could only add power to the 22hp specifications if it were tested the same way as the Kohler.
Tim
Did you ever get a reply from your engineers about testing the Robin engines to the same specification or testing method as the Kohler? As I said before it could only add power to the 22hp specifications if it were tested the same way as the Kohler.
Tim
MossRoad
Super Moderator
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 57,997
- Location
- South Bend, Indiana (near)
- Tractor
- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
We've heard this subject mentioned before. What are the two methods used by these two companies and how do they differ? Just want to know. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
JackRobin
Bronze Member
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Jack:
What is Robins opinion in using synthetic oil such as amsoil in your 22 hp engine and if ok what weight. My pt422 has about 560 hours on it and does not require any oil added between oil changes. I have thought about trying a synthetic but I am a little hesitant about changing . )</font>
I have been looking for as much info regarding synthetic oil used in our engines as possible. I was always under the impression that synthetic oil would damage the cylinder sleeve in the longer run, however this is not true what so ever.
I have been advised by the japanese engineers that use of synthetic oils in our engines is allowed, as long as the weight is the same as non-detergent oil (10W30-Summer, 5W30-Winter)
They've also said that there is no advantage in using the synthetic oil, the only significant operation difference is noticible in extreme cold conditions such they have in Alaska.
I hope this helps.
Jack Gawecki
Robin America, Inc.
Technical Support Dept.
800-277-6246
What is Robins opinion in using synthetic oil such as amsoil in your 22 hp engine and if ok what weight. My pt422 has about 560 hours on it and does not require any oil added between oil changes. I have thought about trying a synthetic but I am a little hesitant about changing . )</font>
I have been looking for as much info regarding synthetic oil used in our engines as possible. I was always under the impression that synthetic oil would damage the cylinder sleeve in the longer run, however this is not true what so ever.
I have been advised by the japanese engineers that use of synthetic oils in our engines is allowed, as long as the weight is the same as non-detergent oil (10W30-Summer, 5W30-Winter)
They've also said that there is no advantage in using the synthetic oil, the only significant operation difference is noticible in extreme cold conditions such they have in Alaska.
I hope this helps.
Jack Gawecki
Robin America, Inc.
Technical Support Dept.
800-277-6246
Rip
Platinum Member
Different brand and model gas or diesel engines produce their peak rated HP and Torque at different RPMs, so these " @ xxxx RPM" number will most always be different. A chart showing the HP and Torque curves will provide much more usefull information since you can see how the HP and Torque are related over a range of RPMs.
Industrial engines are also often shown with several HP and Torque curves for the same engine with designations such as Intermittant, Continous, and Peak. This information is useful for those applications where the engine is run at near constant speed with constant load or variable load. A hydrostatic machine such as a PT or CUT with HST puts quite different demands on an engine than a gear unit for example.
Advertising literature aimed at non-engineers most often lists the highest value for both HP and Torque that the engineering data will support even if it can be misleading in reallity. Most all engines within a general type class are "tested" in the same manner, it is that the data is often selectively presented in "technical" specs provided to the general public that can cause confusion.
So, look for those curves!
Rip
Industrial engines are also often shown with several HP and Torque curves for the same engine with designations such as Intermittant, Continous, and Peak. This information is useful for those applications where the engine is run at near constant speed with constant load or variable load. A hydrostatic machine such as a PT or CUT with HST puts quite different demands on an engine than a gear unit for example.
Advertising literature aimed at non-engineers most often lists the highest value for both HP and Torque that the engineering data will support even if it can be misleading in reallity. Most all engines within a general type class are "tested" in the same manner, it is that the data is often selectively presented in "technical" specs provided to the general public that can cause confusion.
So, look for those curves!
Rip
Schultz
Gold Member
We've heard this subject mentioned before. What are the two methods used by these two companies and how do they differ? Just want to know.
Kohler's method of testing is J1995, which is SAE Gross Horsepower, below is a definition of the term:
SAE Gross Horsepower
This is the old process that American manufacturers used as a guide for rating their cars. It was in place until 1971. SAE gross also measures horsepower at the flywheel, but with no accessories to bog it down. This is the bare engine with nothing but the absolute essentials attached to it; little more than a carb, fuel pump, oil pump, and water pump. Because the test equipment on the engine is not the same as in SAE net, it is impossible to provide a mathematical calculation between SAE net and SAE gross. As a general rule, however, SAE net tends to be approximately 80% of the value of SAE gross. SAE J245 and J1995 define this measurement.
Koehler's Disclaimer:
Horsepower ratings (shown as gross) are in accordance with Society of Automotive Engineers Small Engine Test Code J1995. Actual engine horsepower is lower and affected by, but not limited to, accessories (air cleaner, exhaust, charging, cooling, fuel pump, etc.), application, engine speed and ambient operating conditions (temperature, humidity and altitude).
I wasn't able to find Kohler's power curves, if anyone has them, please post.
Robin's method of power measurement is SAE Net Horsepower, below is a definition for that:
SAE Net Horsepower
In 1972, American manufacturers phased in SAE net horsepower. This is the standard on which current American ratings are based. This rating is measured at the flywheel, on an engine dyno, but the engine is tested with all accessories installed, including a full exhaust system, all pumps, the alternator, the starter, and emissions controls. Both SAE net and SAE gross horsepower test procedures are documented in Society of Automotive Engineers standard J1349. Because SAE net is so common, this is the standard we will use to compare all others.
Attached is Robin's power curve and disclaimer for the 18-22hp engines. The 22hp is the EH65.
So if you look at the two methods of power measurement the net provides a more realistic number for the end user. As mentioned in the above definitions gross horsepower rating will out do net horsepower by about 20% in typical automotive applications, I don't think that difference is that great in a small air cooled engine, so maybe I'm splitting hairs.
Web site that explains HP and measurement a little more:
HP definitions
Kohler's method of testing is J1995, which is SAE Gross Horsepower, below is a definition of the term:
SAE Gross Horsepower
This is the old process that American manufacturers used as a guide for rating their cars. It was in place until 1971. SAE gross also measures horsepower at the flywheel, but with no accessories to bog it down. This is the bare engine with nothing but the absolute essentials attached to it; little more than a carb, fuel pump, oil pump, and water pump. Because the test equipment on the engine is not the same as in SAE net, it is impossible to provide a mathematical calculation between SAE net and SAE gross. As a general rule, however, SAE net tends to be approximately 80% of the value of SAE gross. SAE J245 and J1995 define this measurement.
Koehler's Disclaimer:
Horsepower ratings (shown as gross) are in accordance with Society of Automotive Engineers Small Engine Test Code J1995. Actual engine horsepower is lower and affected by, but not limited to, accessories (air cleaner, exhaust, charging, cooling, fuel pump, etc.), application, engine speed and ambient operating conditions (temperature, humidity and altitude).
I wasn't able to find Kohler's power curves, if anyone has them, please post.
Robin's method of power measurement is SAE Net Horsepower, below is a definition for that:
SAE Net Horsepower
In 1972, American manufacturers phased in SAE net horsepower. This is the standard on which current American ratings are based. This rating is measured at the flywheel, on an engine dyno, but the engine is tested with all accessories installed, including a full exhaust system, all pumps, the alternator, the starter, and emissions controls. Both SAE net and SAE gross horsepower test procedures are documented in Society of Automotive Engineers standard J1349. Because SAE net is so common, this is the standard we will use to compare all others.
Attached is Robin's power curve and disclaimer for the 18-22hp engines. The 22hp is the EH65.
So if you look at the two methods of power measurement the net provides a more realistic number for the end user. As mentioned in the above definitions gross horsepower rating will out do net horsepower by about 20% in typical automotive applications, I don't think that difference is that great in a small air cooled engine, so maybe I'm splitting hairs.
Web site that explains HP and measurement a little more:
HP definitions
Attachments
Schultz
Gold Member
Yes RIP your exactly right hp and torque aren't everything and the power curves along with actual usage will complete the story and prove that all engines rated at the same HP are not equal.
Attached is an extreme example of torque rise, serious torque rise....
This is from a Case/Challenger/CAT track type Ag tractor. This engine creates some serious HP/torque just about anywhere you put the RPM, it's HP doesn't peak at peak rpm like the air cooled engines discussed above, it peaks at mid range rpm. So, you won't bog this tractor down if your working it beyond 2000 rpm. A 550 hp race car's engine power curve probably looks like the robin engine curve where it's peak power is developed at peak RPM. Compare these two engines and the only thing they have in common is they both make 550 hp.
Tim
Attached is an extreme example of torque rise, serious torque rise....
This is from a Case/Challenger/CAT track type Ag tractor. This engine creates some serious HP/torque just about anywhere you put the RPM, it's HP doesn't peak at peak rpm like the air cooled engines discussed above, it peaks at mid range rpm. So, you won't bog this tractor down if your working it beyond 2000 rpm. A 550 hp race car's engine power curve probably looks like the robin engine curve where it's peak power is developed at peak RPM. Compare these two engines and the only thing they have in common is they both make 550 hp.
Tim
Attachments
MossRoad
Super Moderator
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 57,997
- Location
- South Bend, Indiana (near)
- Tractor
- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
Thanks, Schultz. I just saw that same explaination on a hot rod show this weekend. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif