PTO Generator

BigAl · Dec 14, 2004

Hey Dave ,
I am not to far away from you . Grass Valley .
I am also looking for a good standby generator . After reading some posting on this and the other one that was recently posted about Generac , I am somewhat confused on what brand to buy . If you know which brands are top rated can you let me know ?
Big Al

v8dave · Dec 15, 2004

BigAl, I've just sent you a PM. I've posted a few thoughts on this topic before. Rather than repeat them again we can take a up an off line discussion.

Dave

djradz · Dec 15, 2004

I would not be the least bit concerned about the "power quality" of a PTO generator. If you're buying one of the newer ones, which do not have magnets, from a reputable source, (Northern and the likes) I believe the quality will be better than the smaller 3-8KW package units and at least as good as the 9KW and above ones. Assuming you have a relatively newer tractor with a functioning govener, you'll be all set.

trlong · Dec 17, 2004

re: Frequency meters

For any interested...

This would certainly not be my first choice if I were seriously concerned about monitoring generator output parameters..AND it is certainly not made for outdoor use. However, I picked one of these up at Radio Shack a couple of years ago for a household load analysis. I don't think RS still carries them but google "P4400 Kill A Watt" and you'll find plenty. At 2% accuracy you should get a pretty good feel for generated frequency. Best of all, they are less than $30. The only cumulative function on it is the kWH's, if memory serves. Here's P3's link:

http://www.p3international.com/products/special/P4400/P4400-HG.html

For those seriously considering any backup generator, it is very illuminating to do a load analysis before deciding on how many kW you really need. If any one is interested, I think I can still find a link to an Excell spreadsheet set up for load analysis. I got it, and modified it for my own use, while taking a course in "alternative energy" (i.e. wind, solar, hydro,... funny they didn't mention tractor /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ).

Tom

Inspector507 · Dec 17, 2004

It does not measure the frequency, from what I could see.

trlong · Dec 17, 2004

Well, advertised "Hz". And mine reads 59.9 Hz when I plug it into the wall.... not sure what you mean.

Inspector507 · Dec 17, 2004

Sorry, my mistake........it does /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

trlong · Dec 17, 2004

No problem. As I said...not the greatest meter in the world (I prefer Fluke or equivalent) but it's a quick cheap way to monitor a generator's output freq. and check your loads as a bonus.

Tom

Soundguy · Dec 18, 2004

( did you select that brand for price, quality, features - combination of all three )

Price would have been an issue, and reliability.. unfortunately it came down to simple availability... once hurricanes started hitting florida.. generator options rapidly dried up. When I called and got the spec sheet on the 12kw model from norhtern, they had 48 units ( after 1st storm ).. the next morning I called to order it.. they had 2 left... and no pto shafts.. so I went to TSC for the pto shaft. I would actually have probablt bought a JD pto gen.. If I could have convinced the 2 local JD dealers that deer & co.. DID indeed carry them.. however they were too lazy to look.. so they lost the sale.

( someone's claim that Winco is the most advance PTO generator, but I haven't seen anything to back it up. )

Not all gens are equal. Some use active voltage regulation.. where otheres use a more passive method. For instance.. northen uses a capacitive 'passive' voltage regulation. Not as desireable as the active units.. not as expensive either...

( guess my reluctance is that I would like to be sure the power coming off a PTO generator is as "clean" as a self contained unit )

I did many voltage/freq load tests.. voltage and frequency stayed in a better range than any self contained unit I tested. which consisted of a 5500w /brigs from TSC, and another larger unit from coleman. Their voltage dropped up to 10% on heave loads like water pumps.. my norhtern unit dropped a couple volts. Much of that may have to do with the power plant.. I.E. they have a 5 or 8hp gas engine sounding like it is going to fly apart running those gensets.. whereas mine was run off a 4 cyl 119ci ford 8n tractor.. etc...

As for clean, vs a self contained unit.. keep in mind that the generator head is very similar. in fact.. the freight truck delivering my 12kw pto gen also had a 27kw pto hen, and the 27kw diesel/self powered unit.. the genhead on both the 27kw units was identical.. that tells me that if you are buying the self contained unit thinking you are getting cleaner power vs your tractor and a seperate head.. you are paying lots of extra money for nothing.

( whole "then you can't use the tractor 'cause its running the generator" )

Yep.. most genny sage i saw was intermittant anyway.. run it a tad to cook or power up water.. etc.. no one I knew just set their and ran their genny non-stop to sit inside and have light to read.. etc.. Inbetween power generation duty.. the tractor would be available for other duty.. that or get a second tractor! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Soundguy

Soundguy · Dec 18, 2004

Another funny thought. Looking at the price of the gens in norhtern that come with a diesel engine attatched for a few thousand more.. think about this.. you could buy a 12kw pto gen.. and one of those economy jinma chineese tractors to run it for about the same price as an attatched diesel engine.. go figure! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Soundguy

Westonium · Dec 25, 2004

Okay, I've received my generator. I *DONT* have the switch yet, but I have the generator and trailer assembled. I'll give it a good test soon, and pictures up within a couple of days. Since it is Christmas eve - Merry Christmas to those that celebrate.

EDIT: Can anyone reccomend an effective, safe, transfer switch for a genny putting out a max 15KW? I just need to be able to switch between utility for the whole house, or genny - not single circuits. I will turn off certain circuits in the breaker box to ensure I don't try to overload (say having all the furnace elements going etc).

I called a certain dealer of such things and he seemed eager to sell me some ridiculous things at $800+. I was polite about it. I love playing along with their stupid scare tactics, misleading information etc. Sadly this was the same place I got my genny from. Had I experienced that phone call previously, I would have taken my generator purchase elsewhere. I guess if you know what you want, that company is ok since they did deliver in reasonable time what I ordered at a reasonable price. meh.

v8dave · Dec 25, 2004

Unfortunately, for an out of the box whole house transfer switch, $800 is not an unreasonable price.

There are other ways to fabricate one for less money. There was a thread several months ago about a home-brewed interlocked transfer switch here on TBN by Neal in Texas. Very early on Neal posted a reply in this thread pointing to his info.

Anyway, take a look at the attached photos in his thread. The photos are very good at showing how to do it.

jfdlaw · Dec 25, 2004

Ditto what Dave said. $800 for a whole house switch is pretty normal. Remember that it's not the generator load that determine the size of a "whole house" switch, its the size of the electrical service coming into the house. What I understand (but I'm no expert) is that these switches replace the main switch and have to be able to carry that load. My electrician is still looking for an affordable whole house switch that can handle the 200 amp service we have. The 50 amps I'll be generating are not the issue.

Westonium · Jan 1, 2005

Well, I too have 200 amp service. $800 for a big switch that says "either you get generator or you get main power" is outlandish.

****, one of those old-fashioned throw-switches would certainly do the trick - up is utlity, down is genny and no physical way to be connected to both.

There simply isn't $800 worth of parts involved.

The way I see it, you just need a big 3-way switch with 2 sets of 200 amp breakers (matching house amp). 1 set for the genny, the other for the utility. This way there is no way to have a mix of power sources, and you can be doubly sure by making the 200amp breakers opposed. This would be 2 layers of protection. Guestimating parts for such a thing I would think $100 or so.

I've been dealing with baby pics and haven't taken a picture of the genny. The instructions were skimpy leaving us playing with the nuts and bolts like a puzzle but it was a fun puzzle with nothing ridiculously complicated or obtuse.

I'm going to see what I can piece together off the net. I tried leaning on my father (a EE from Purdue) but he's let his AC knowledge go rusty. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif To think that he used to design sub-stations and whatnot and now he won't weigh in on a trivial thing like a switch. Say "LA VEE" /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Inspector507 · Jan 1, 2005

Haven't priced too many 200 aomp breakers lately, have you? /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Westonium · Jan 1, 2005

Actually - theres a fair number of them available for $30 and under on the net. I don't think they were that pricey at Home Depot either. They don't have the 200 amp breakers on the home depot website, but they had 100Amp breakers listed at $31.

So even if I paid $50 each for a 200Amp breaker and opposed them, we're a far far cry from $800.

Inspector507 · Jan 1, 2005

Depends on the brand you're looking for and used/new. And keep in mind 100 amp is half the price of 200 amp. Anything over 125 doubles in price or so it seems.

Westonium · Jan 2, 2005

Looking around a bit, I found some for sale here:
http://www.zinscocircuitbreakers.com/products.asp?cat=GE

for $112. Not a great price, but I'm certainly on my way to beating $800.

I just found them for $99 at ACE!

http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/productaddonsdetails.asp?source=aceoutlet&id=34069

The part number for GE's 200 Amp 240V 2 pole circuit breaker (which I assume will work) is TQD22200WL