Question about general contractor & his 'subs'

Richard · May 6, 2009

I use the word 'sub' loosely because this guy isn't a sub. They are more like partners on my house BUT, they are not really partners. Let's just call it a symbiotic relationship.

I'm only mentioning that because this is not a classic GC/sub situation as I understand it.

To the point... If it were not for this "sub", I don't know what my contractor would do. Truth be told, the 'sub' told me a couple weeks ago that the GC WANTS to become partners however, the sub sees some of the dumb things I see with the GC and frankly, he doesn't need the annoyance so he's informed me that my job will probably be the last job he works together with the GC.

When the GC was 'selling' us this job, it was sold as a turnkey situation. Two rooms and this wrap around deck.

Along the path there have been a number of areas where all the sudden, he's remembering something different that might not be spelled exactly in the contract (the contract can't account for 100% of everything?...well, in our case it didn't)

Anyways, they say again, that they'll be done in 2-3 weeks (first heard this 4 months ago).

If this is true, then he's "forgetting" that the basement room is also a turnkey room. Seems his definition of turnkey is putting firring strips on the wall and letting me deal with drywall later...and perhaps even the tile flooring.

Mind you, this room currently has a 6' french door that was an outside door. This door is going to be removed and we'll have a 6' opening into this room. he's now calling it a "storeroom".

how many people have a finished basement with a 6' opening, heading into a firred, concrete room?

So, when it comes time for him to try to collect the final payment, I will point out that I didn't realize he was done since this room that he said he'd build turnkey isn't finished.

I expect an issue with him at this point although in fairness... I'm currently being cynical. Perhaps he'll surprise me and the drywall guy/gal is coming in 2 weeks. We'll see.

The thrust of my queston is... if my cynicisim is right and he does NOT intend to finish this room as previously agreed (contract happens to be vague, it was supposedly changed from being called a bedroom to storage room for septic tank reasons)

Anyways... I do not intend to pay him until the job is done. I am MORE than happy to sit in front of a judge and let the Judge tell me that I'm wrong or, more possibly, that I'm right and set him straight.

What I do NOT want to happen is, by my witholding payment to him, I do NOT want his "sub" to be denied any payment he's due. He has a family and at least one child and it's not fair for my disagreement with the GC to affect him.

When this job is over, if I NEVER see the GC again, that will be fine. The 'sub' on the other hand, has already been in discussions with us about some other jobs around the house (or the uncles house next door) where the GC guy is factored OUT of the conversation. I want to keep good realations with the 'sub' but do not care about relations with the GC, unless he in fact, finishes the job as he 'sold' it.

So...

When final payment time comes, what I'm thinking I'd like to do is pay the sub what he's owed so he can walk away with full payment. The balance that I'd otherwise owe the GC, hold back until if need be, a conversation with a judge.

I do not know if this is legal since my contract is with the GC. I just want to make sure the sub is taken care of since really, he's not the one that made all the promises and the contract isn't really with him.

I'm under the belief, right or wrong, that if a GC doesn't pay a sub (even though HE's been paid) the sub has the right to slap a lein on your property?? If that is correct, it seems reasonable that I should be able to pay him directly to allow him to close his books on me.

Thoughts?

framer · May 6, 2009

Sorry about your misfortune with gc.If your contract is vague like you said
sounds like judge will decide.As to paying his sub not a problem in my books.
Very kind of you. Good luck. Framer

LarryD · May 7, 2009

Ask for lien releases from all subs and vendors before payment is made. Or make a joint check payable to both parties.

dmccarty · May 7, 2009

My understand is that in NC if the sub is not paid said sub can put a lien on your house.

If you pay the "sub" then make sure the release is signed.

The problem I see with paying off the sub, which sounds VERY much like the correct thing to do, is how do you know how much the sub is owned? If the sub says you own him $10,000 how do you know? In this case you trust the sub. But what is to keep the "GC" saying the "sub" was only owned $5,000 and looking at you for the difference? Seems like you need to know from the "GC" how much the sub is owed.

Since you said you don't mind standing in front of the judge it might not matter.

And if you are already thinking this might require a judge you might as well have a conversation or two with a lawyer.

Over the years we have talked to quite a few lawyers who have given us good advice on a couple of subjects including GCs, subs, liens and foreclosure. Even though we were very adamant in paying for their time they never charged us a cent.

Good Luck,
Dan

EddieWalker · May 7, 2009

It gets tricky when you try to pay the subs directly and leave the GC out. When I hire subs, I tell the home owner up front what they charge and they pay the sub directly. I don't handle the money, just the paperwork. Allot of GC's make a profit on the work the sub does as part of their pay. Here, 15% is about normal. The GC might be expecting payment for the work the sub does and if you pay the sub, that means the work they did is done and the GC is also due payment for making sure the sub did his job. Some GC's are just supervisors that keep things moving, others are hands on and make their money by what they actually do.

It sounds like you really need to fire you GC. You are not happy with him and you are willing to go to court with him. This says it all. Fire him. Get him to sign a release and pay him what you owe him, but not for the entire job, which he hasn't done. You owe him something, so pay him off and get rid of him. It sounds like you found somebody better with the sub, so hire him to finish off the job.

In my experience, every homeowner who has had a problem with a contractor knew early on that there was going to be a problem. The mistake that every single one of them makes is to hope for the best and keep him on the job until it's beyond hope that he will do what he is supposed to do. There are allot of reasons for this, but the common denominator is the hope that even though he's done so many things wrong, never showed up, didn't keep his word and doesn't return phone calls, is that he will change and it will all work out in time. It doesn't. Then you end up hiring somebody else to come in an undo what was done wrong, or finish what was never completed.

This is where I come in. It's sad, but usually I have to undo what was done to a point that I can move forward. Time is money, so this is just another expense that the client has to endure to finish their project. I take lots of pictures in case there is a problem down the line, but so far, none of those fired contractors have ever come back to file a lien or sued for payment. They just sort of sulk away to find another client to take advantage of.

It's always a gamble on how they will take it, but by doing nothing and hoping for the best is how things get out of control. From your previous posts on this guy, it sounds like he's been around longer then he should have.

Good luck,
Eddie