Questions about biodiesel

[jbrumberg]

To All:

I read some interesting posts in the NH Owning & Operating Forum about biodiesel fuel "cleaning out" and "gumming up" fuel lines and fuel filters when tractor operators switched from LSD and ULSD diesel fuel to biodiesel and biodiesel mixed fuels. I have been episodically ranting and raving on TBN about fuel mixes all winter this year and I am now interested in the costs and benefits of switching to biodiesel. I am aware of the problem of availability and cost, but are there other "surprises" related to biodiesel use? My blood pressure and mental status are adversely affected when the tractor does not meet my "parameters of expectation" . Thank you advance for your responses- Jay

 

[DieselPower]

Biodiesel acts much like ULSD fuel does. It has the same if not worse solvent effect as ULSD fuel does. In newer equuipment this usually only means changing the fuel filter a little early for the first few tanks. It will clean the buildup and gunk out of your fuel system. On older equipment you may find that you start to have fuel leaks. Older engines used mainly natural rubber compounds to make the o-rings and fuel lines and just like ULSD the biodiesel can deteriorate this rubber and cause leaks. Change out o-rings and fuel lines with modern viton rubber and the problem is fixed. Much like ULSD it also tends to have a higher gel point so treatment with a antigel in the winter may be required.

I run biodiesel and do not have any problems. I had changed all the o-rings in my injection pumps and changed all the fuel lines before the change to biodiesel in my older tractors and trucks. I also expected to change the fuel filters a little early at the start to prevent filter plugging. In the winter I use a antigel and have not had a gelling problem yet.

Advantages of the biodiesel are that it is renewable and helps out the farmers of the US. It keeps your fuel system very clean once the initial "cleaning phase" is done. It has a lot better lubricity than regular diesel fuel so helps to protect injection pumps and injectors from scuffing wear. It burns cleaner with less emissions.

 

[OCDLubeman]

Here's another anecdote regarding biodiesel. My work place in south central Michigan switched over to B20 (from B5) about three years ago for dozens of pieces of equipment, from tractors, loaders, to garbage trucks. The first several winters were mild with no problems. This year's icy blast caused numerous filter plugging problems, but it seemed to be inconsistent among the various equipment and locations. For some it was so bad, they pumped out the B20 and went back to regular diesel.

Yesterday I attended a biodiesel seminar at work with a Schaeffer's additive rep present (Schaeffers is among the top 3 fuel additive suppliers in the country).

In short, he said that NO additive technology exists by anyone to get the low temperature characteristics needed in severe conditions for B20 yet. They recommend B5 in winter, B20 in summer. Contact them for the data and specs.

Also, he emphasized that one should not blame all of this on just the bio-diesel component. The recent shift to ULSD and some of it's chemical components/contaminents have the lube engineers still working on the correct additive packages.

Sorry I don't have more specifics.

Finally, in regards to the advantages of bio based fuels. There is a growing concern that the use of soybeans and corn for fuel is going to reek havoc on our economy because it will cause shortages of these products for other uses. Soybeans are used for gazillions of products: paint, ink, medicine.......

 

[DieselPower]

In short, he said that NO additive technology exists by anyone to get the low temperature characteristics needed in severe conditions for B20 yet. They recommend B5 in winter, B20 in summer. Contact them for the data and specs.

Sounds like a sales rep with no technical knowledge of the additives he was speaking about. There are plenty of additives on the market that work just fine at lowering the CFPP (cold filter plug point) of B2 through B20 blend biodiesel fuel. The additive I use in my home brew B20 blend biodiesel lowers the CFPP about 25 degrees F. at a treat ratio of 1:1,000. I drove in the -20's this winter with no problem.

 

[OCDLubeman]

My apologies, I must retract my statements, after checking my notes.

It seems maybe the problem was related to trace amounts of monoglycerides showing up with the fuel and expediting the problem - even though it was ASTM spec'ed fuel.

MAYBE he said they don't have an additive to handle that problem yet and maybe he said that it appears to have been more a problem with the particular B20 (vs. B5) our area was receiving.

And......maybe I should check my facts better before implanting my foot in my mouth! Thanks Diesel Power for good watch-dogging.

Here is one article that talks about monoglycerides:

http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/ID/ID-338.pdf.

 

[DieselPower]

My apologies, I must retract my statements, after checking my notes.

It seems maybe the problem was related to trace amounts of monoglycerides showing up with the fuel and expediting the problem - even though it was ASTM spec'ed fuel.

MAYBE he said they don't have an additive to handle that problem yet and maybe he said that it appears to have been more a problem with the particular B20 (vs. B5) our area was receiving.

And......maybe I should check my facts better before implanting my foot in my mouth! Thanks Diesel Power for good watch-dogging.

Here is one article that talks about monoglycerides:

http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/ID/ID-338.pdf.

Unfortunately boidiesel science and technology is still in the beginning stages. The main problem seems to be how monoglycerides interact with sterols. Sterols which are complex aromatic ring structures like cholesterol are found in very low concentrations in all vegetable oils, and they can interact with traces of impurities in biodiesel. These sterols may aggregate into complexes with monoglycerides and diglycerides present in biodiesel, helping to form a precipitate that falls out of solution. Sterols and how they interact with monoglycerides is not fully understood as is how best to test for them. B100 fuel that leaves the refinery may be fine and not exhibit any of these problems. However, once it leaves the refinery it is exposed to atmospheric moisture and this exposure seems to interact with the sterols and glycerides and speed up the precipitate that falls out of solution. As biodiesel becomes more "popular" and is used more there will be a lot more research going into it and its particular problems and how best to treat those problems.

 

[jbrumberg]

DieselPower & OCDLubeman:

Thank you for your responses, both of you provided me a lot of information. The complex interactions amongst all the glycerides and sterols with water and rubber plus the greater economic implications makes me a little nervous about switching to biodiesel at this time. I am truly amazed at the wealth of information (as well as "opinion") available through TBN. Thank you again- Jay

 

[deere755]

I would love to see nothing more then the U.S. to find a way make bio fuels work. But I am not convinced that soy diesel has all the bugs worked out of it or we have diesel engines designed to use it yet. We have tried it in our Semi trucks and not had good luck. It seems we lose MPG and we go thru fuel filters all the time. We had 2 trucks gel up at 26 degrees one morning. We have also noticed that we have had to replace fuel lines as they seem to deteriorate and fall apart. We replaced one injector pump. Our mechanic recomended we go back to regular fuel. After switching back we have had no problems. I would love to use it again if I thought we could get by with out any problems. I am very hopeful that their will be improvements in bio fuels and engines to use bio fuel. Just my 2 cents

 

[cowpie1]

A little added experience. I have been using bio blends up to B20 for a few years now. I have never experienced any problems with fuel or filters in my NH TC33DA, Jeep Liberty CRD, or both '99 International and '06 Volvo (both with Cummins engines).

I have predominately used blends of B5 and B10. I have used anti gel additives the same as in the past for winter. Most of the bio sold by reputable dealers is fine. Some I know have used B99 with no problems in tractors and vehicles. I can get B99 locally, but have not given it a try.

Most of the problems with Bio is that the user does not use addtives to control gelling like they should. Also, for older vehicles, a filter change will be needed when going to bio and then a short time later, as the bio will loosen up deposits in the tanks and lines and clog up a filter. I have never experienced that, but some have.

Unless one has a real desire to use the product and it is the same or cheaper price than dino diesel, I wouldn't go out looking for it. It seems a lot of people are into it as a novelty item. I use it for the lubricity factor and that it is priced well compared to normal diesel. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Wow, another Liberty CRD owner - that's like finding a purple zebra.

I have a Liberty CRD and Dodge Ram/Cummins and have run a lot of B20 through both with zero problems. They run smoother too, and I have had no cold weather problems here in Michigan. HOWEVER, since I don't usually get two tanks of B20 in a row, there is rarely more than 10-15% biodiesel in the fuel tank at a time. Also, biodiesel is mostly made and sold locally, and quality seems to vary a lot. The few stations in my area that sell it seem to have top quality biodiesel. Your area might not.

I would like to use B20 in my tractor also, but the dealer specifically told me not to when he delivered it, so I'm probably sticking to using the same "premium" all-petro ULSD that I usually use in my trucks.