questions for ck20/25/30 owners

pilemonkey · Feb 16, 2008

i am in the process of researching CUT's and i have developed a warm spot spot for kioti. i am looking for something in the 25-30 hp range, FEL, Hydrostatic trans, R4's. this tractor would be used for the following: maintaining a 300' gravel road/driveway, spreading gravel/stone/loam/mulch/chips (maybe 15 yds total per year), lugging/moving things around a 2-3 acre property (firewood, rocks, seasonal furniture, shrubs, oddball scavenged goods, etc.), removing snow initially from a paved +/-50' long driveway and later from the 300' long road/driveway.
obviously the ck20 is not in the 25-30hp range, but i have been rather impressed with the reviews and descriptions of worked performed with it on these forums, so it is still in the running...
on to the questions:

weight - the ck20/25/30 are all significantly heavier than their competitors. the only drawbacks to this that i have thought of so far are that it would tend to foul up a lawn more if used for mowing (i won't be), and possibly issues when trailering (potentially larger, heavier trailer required). is there anything else i should be considering with respect to the additional weight?

hydraulic flow - the 20/25/30 all have higher flow rates than competitors. i would tend to think this would lead to smoother operation when doing more than one function (driving and lowering loader arms, for instance). is this the case?

PTO:Gross HP: the 20/25/30 have somewhat lower PTO:gross HP ratios when compared to competitors. not a huge difference, however (about 73% vs. 76%). is this relevant, or should i be looking at gross hp and pto hp based on implement requirements only?

HP:tractor weight: given the fact that these machines are fairly heavy, the HP:weight ratios are somewhat low. is this an issue?

fyi: "competitors" in this case are JD, NH, and Kubota

thanks in advance for any input.

albmn10 · Feb 16, 2008

I looked at the very same brands as you when i was shopping, acutally looked at Kioti last.. I was very impressed with the fit and finish and the price was very good as well. It was easily the best tractor for the money when i was shopping.I ended up with the ck30hst which i purchased in March 05 . I use a 72 in boxblade,84 in landscape rake, both to maintain 800 ft of driveway. I also use a 72 backblade for snow removal and it works very well.I also run the Woods 80x backhoe on mine as well. The weight is beneficial in all areas except finish mowing, which is not a concern of yours as you stated. If you like the hst id recomend either the ck20s or ck30 in the group you mentioned. Both machines are very capable at doing the work you have listed.. Test drive them both. Im sure alot of others will chime in as well... good luck. Matt

Gittyup · Feb 16, 2008

Unless mowing is a big part of what you will be using the tractor for, weight is not a problem, but rather an asset. Lighter means smaller truck and trailer. Heavy means more power to the ground, easier loader work, and it'll stay in place when you curl that backhoe bucket. The CK25/30 TLB really is best towed by a 10K trailer to be safe. Though, some do tow with a 7K trailer. This may or may not be important to you.

Big difference in hydraulic flow between the 20 and the 25/30. The extra flow of the Kiotis means faster and smoother operation Will handle more types of hydraulically driven implements too.

The 25/30's also have an independent pto. I don't think that is the case on the 20.

Small PTO hp differences should be taken with a grain of salt. Manufacturers qualify their own numbers somewhat differently, and trannies do vary in efficiency.

HP to weight ratio? I think that's a silly metric, unless using the PTO at full power on steep slopes. HST will have a little less hp than the Gears at the PTO too.

I have the CK25 on similar size lot as yours, with similar tasks. It's huge, but not so big that it doesn't fit. If you have tight spaces, the CK20 might work better for you. I started out looking at the 20. The deciding factors for me were the extra weight and hydraulic pump capacity (bigger, faster backhoe). I was thinking HST originally, but after driving the shuttle shift on the CK25, I decided that a CK25 gear for just slightly more money than a CK20 HST was the way to go for me.

Good luck in your shopping.

rimshot · Feb 17, 2008

pilemonkey said:
i am in the process of researching CUT's and i have developed a warm spot spot for kioti. i am looking for something in the 25-30 hp range, FEL, Hydrostatic trans, R4's. this tractor would be used for the following: maintaining a 300' gravel road/driveway, spreading gravel/stone/loam/mulch/chips (maybe 15 yds total per year), lugging/moving things around a 2-3 acre property (firewood, rocks, seasonal furniture, shrubs, oddball scavenged goods, etc.), removing snow initially from a paved +/-50' long driveway and later from the 300' long road/driveway.
obviously the ck20 is not in the 25-30hp range, but i have been rather impressed with the reviews and descriptions of worked performed with it on these forums, so it is still in the running...
on to the questions:

weight - the ck20/25/30 are all significantly heavier than their competitors. the only drawbacks to this that i have thought of so far are that it would tend to foul up a lawn more if used for mowing (i won't be), and possibly issues when trailering (potentially larger, heavier trailer required). is there anything else i should be considering with respect to the additional weight?

hydraulic flow - the 20/25/30 all have higher flow rates than competitors. i would tend to think this would lead to smoother operation when doing more than one function (driving and lowering loader arms, for instance). is this the case?

PTO:Gross HP: the 20/25/30 have somewhat lower PTO:gross HP ratios when compared to competitors. not a huge difference, however (about 73% vs. 76%). is this relevant, or should i be looking at gross hp and pto hp based on implement requirements only?

HP:tractor weight: given the fact that these machines are fairly heavy, the HP:weight ratios are somewhat low. is this an issue?

fyi: "competitors" in this case are JD, NH, and Kubota

thanks in advance for any input.

====================
I just went through the selection process like you. While i gave some thought to JD and NH, the battle was between the two orange k's. kubota was a great tractor but when i saw that Kioti and looked over the heavy axles and actually grabbed the solid fenders and grab handles and raised the hood........well that was the tractor for me.

I bought a new CK20(s) HST 22 h.p. with FEL, BH, and snow blower. I have to say I only have 18 hours on it and have done nothing other than snow removal but have i ever moved the snow. Those Wind packed drifts from lake Michigan have crashed the beach homes making them inaccesssible until Until my CK got a hold of that white stuff. I'm tallking snow drifts 10' - 12'
high. I have been particularly impressed with the nimble turning ability of my CK20.It can literally turn around in it's tracks. I have plenty of power to ram into banks of hardened snow left by pick up trucks trying to push some of their old banks back to make room for new snow. I either front bucket that concentrated packed stuff bucket by bucket to remove it or I cut it away from the drift and break it up so I can back my blower through the stuff and give it a one way ticket out of the way.

As for the pto horsepower, I'm thinking Kioti is very conservative with that figure and I don't understand why the industry varies so widely in perceiving this number. I have the HST and still think it's got plenty of power. The FEL hydraulics at 2000 rpm with a full bucket of compacted snow is plenty fast. I am aware compacted snow is lighter than dirt but this stuff is still heavy and my bucket is heaped.

I will trailer the 20 on a 16' car hauler with 7000# capacity. The trailer worked fine on it's 10 mile maiden voyage. Not lot's of time in the saddle yet but I think i got the right tractor for my needs. Check em all and then grab the Kioti right by the fender and try one out.

rimshot (heavy is beautiful if you're a tractor)

Mastertech · Feb 17, 2008

The CK30 that I bought last year is my 4th tractor (I am no tractor expert by any means). The first was a Ford, the next 2 were Kubota's. All 3 served me well. I got the Kioti becuase it was several thousand dollars less than an equivelent New Holland or Kubota. But I have got to tell ya, this CK30 is an animal !!!! I use my tractors! (not abuse) At 148 hrs. it has moved 1000# safes, (I am a locksmith), moved yard and yards of dirt, stone creat, built 2 drive ways and dealt with 26" of snow (in Feb alone) and sub zero temps here in Michigan. I could go on and on. Sure I have had the typical small warrenty issues like a burnt out preheat indicator bulb etc. This is one wild workhorse of a compact tractor. My neighbor just got a new Cub 23 hp lawn tractor with all the toys and spent $7200.00. I just look over (and down

) at him and smile!!!

So i say go 30hp and order it with industrial tires and save up for a set of turfs!!! JMHO

pilemonkey · Feb 17, 2008

thanks to all of you for the quick (and informative) replies. this certainly helps to pare away some of the decisions. it sounds as though most of you are using your tractors for similar tasks as what i have in mind. so, next round of questions:

20 vs. 25/30: i have not test driven anything yet - hopefully this spring/summer. i am thinking that if the 20 seems like it will do what i want, it may be handy in that it occupies a smaller footprint. if not, i'll be looking at the 25/30. i have read that the 25 hst tends to be underpowered somewhat. thoughts?

gittyup: you stated that you have a ck25 gear. are there any tasks that have made you wish you had the 30 hp? also, i am a little unclear (uneducated) on the independent vs. non independent PTO. what is the difference and how/when would i know or care about the difference?

q/a or not: at some point, i think it would be nice to have a q/a system (factory or otherwise). i am also thinking that one of the first things i'll do is install a toothbar and receiver system on the bucket. the receiver system will allow me to attach a boom pole, forks, etc. in your opinion, am i wise to see how things go, or just bite the bullet initially and get a q/a setup? also, i think there are different types of q/a systems. i am leaning toward a skid steer type. does this make sense?

block heater: given that i plan to clear snow with this, what are your thoughts on a block heater? local dealer says the glow plugs work fine with virtually all of his customers and that a heater could be wasted money. thoughts?

thanks again for your input. getting real time feedback from you really gives me a level of confidence in some of these decisions.

Gittyup · Feb 17, 2008

Regarding the CK25 HST being under powered. I can't really say for sure because I haven't used one. Just make sure that such statements are based on experience rather than perception or conjecture. I'd be surprised if Kioti would sell it if it were really true.

So, far I haven't been wanting for more HP. I run a Bushhog brand CS-100P chipper/shredder off the PTO. It takes 5" hard, dry logs with ease. You do have to hold back on them a bit to keep the motor from bogging down as the chipper is a very fast monster. I've also run a 12" post hole digger. Cuts right through big roots, and big power line cables (miss utility was wrong), and also dispells big rocks. Not so much as a hiccup while doing it. I don't brush hog with it. That and tilling would probably put the biggest loads on the PTO.

Independent PTO differences come into play on the gear models only (I think). The CK25/30 has a 2 stage clutch. Push part way disengages the tranny only and leaves the PTO running. Push all the way and everything is disengaged. On the CK20, it's all or nothing. This will make a difference when snow blowing or mowing, and while shifting gears. Do a search on the Kioti forum. It has been discussed recently.

Difinitely go QA. I wish I had. I have a toothbar and it works great for digging into hard piles. But it isn't so good backdragging. It does go on and off in about a minute though. I would get one.

If the dealer is suggesting you don't need a block heater, then you probably don't.

On your backhoe, make sure the dealer puts on rear remotes using big hoses (1/2"). That way you have the remotes for other purposes and the big hoses will improve implement speed.

mrutkaus · Feb 20, 2008

I don't need a heater, but I have a lower radiator hose heater. My CK30HST will start easily without the heater (lowest I've had is about +10F) but after heating it for an hour or two it starts and idles and sounds like it does in the summer, that must be better for the engine...

Mike

williekioti · Feb 22, 2008

Test drive both the 20 and either the 25 or 30 to see which fits you best. As far as 25 or 30 I don't think there's that much difference with 5 ponies with what 95% of owners use 'em for. I guess if you at the edge of the PTO ratings for a particular implement the few extra ponies might encourage you to spend the extra bucks. If the area you plan to operate in has limitations the 20 might fit the bill. Just don't undersell yourself on your purchase, plan for any/all intended future uses.

QA? If you are thinking about it now, get it. You'll kick yourself later for not having it. I have it on my ck30 and it is by FAR the most time saving gizmo on the tractor, litterally worth it's weight in gold, OK maybe silver.

On the block heater, I guess it depends on where you live and what the average temperatures are going to be where your store/operate your machine. Your dealer is probably part right, meaning that yes your tractor will start just fine with the glow plugs in winter temps, but will it easily? Also, if the block & oil is warm it is easier on the engine during start up, oil moves through the system easier, faster. To me that is cheap insurance for longevity in the engine's lifespan. Mine has always started with or without the heater, but sure doesn't sound great at -10* w/o though. My selling dealer automatically adds block heaters to every new Kioti he sells, for like the last 22 years, he must know a thing or two I'd think........

Good luck in your tractor hunt.

WK

pilemonkey · Feb 23, 2008

what would you recommend as far a q/a systems? i am leaning toward something that would utilize a skid steer mount. does anyone have this and if so, what are its strengths and weaknesses?

gittyup, i am not planning on getting a backhoe right now, but i am glad you brought up having rear remotes installed. this is something else i have been tossing around. i don't know that i'd have any use right away for them, but i'm thinking that cylinder actuated angle adjustments on a rake/blade would be nice at some point. it this something that i can do myself later on, or no? what about adding one up front on the FEL for a grapple or something? is this something i should have a dealer do, or is it something that someone with a reasonable mechanical aptitude can handle?

thanks again for everyone's input.