R1s vs R4s for full size utility--nut orchard and haymaking

[SilverbackMP]

I apologize for this post; I know the R1 vs R4 discussion has been discussed ad nausem (sp?) on tractorbynet (I may be new but I've read pretty much 3-4 years worth of threads in most of the subforums). Most of the R1 vs R4 discussion revolve are CUTs and general "estate" use and I haven't found the answer to my specific question (yes, I used the search feature).

I am planning on putting in 30 acres of either improved black walnut (for nut production) or chinese chestunuts on the 45 acres that I just purchased. I also plan on buying more land (100 or acres) in the next 3-5 years and will be buying additional acreage every five years.

The terrain is basically flat to slightly rolling, marginal farm ground, 3 ft clay loam top soil transitioning to clay--typical north central Missouri land (typical "CRP" ground). I may intercrop between the trees (30 ft centers) with hay production (probably red clover/timothy mix) and possibly (unlikely) no till or minimum till wheat/soybeans.

I'm concerned about rutting the field with Ag tires. Once the the trees start producing a crop, I will need to get into the fields at the critical times to mow, harvest etc and I will need flat, non-rutted ground to facilitate harvesting.

Do you think R4s would better suit my proposed operation? Tractor will be 60-90 hp utility--probably Kubota or Massey.

Thanks

 

[whistlepig]

As if this hasn't been beaten to death. Tire type doesn't have anything to do with ruts. Same size tire and same weight. R4's wear like iron and ride like iron. R4's a bit more gentile on the grass mowing. R1's ride better and have better traction in the mean stuff. Pick your poison.

 

[Reg]

As if this hasn't been beaten to death. Tire type doesn't have anything to do with ruts. Same size tire and same weight. R4's wear like iron and ride like iron. R4's a bit more gentile on the grass mowing. R1's ride better and have better traction in the mean stuff. Pick your poison.

Except that for same/similar tractor they are typically NOT the same width.
R4s are about 40 to 50% wider - for a couple of sample tractors that I happen to be familiar with.
The R4s also run at lower pressure - & by implication exert lower ground pressure.
IF you want to load them the R4 will take about 40% more fluid... and I really do NOT know how/where that fits (or not) in the whole traction argument.
According to what KIND of muck you contemplate being stuck in... there are cases where the wider R4 is more likely to "carry you across" and the R1 sink in.

Anyway, I agree on the wear factor.
I also agree that this has been hacked to pieces too many times already.
Get a set of each - that is my usual answer.

 

[SilverbackMP]

Hacked to death yes...but usually hacked to death by guys with subcut or CUTs with 3-20 acres. I haven't seen too many R1 vs R4 discussions for real Ag work. Why? Most farmers grew up running the same type of operation that they current farm. They already know the answer. I didn't grow up farming; although I have row crop farmer relatives.

Also there arent' too many nut orchard operators in the area for me to ask. There is one decent sized northern pecan/gamma grass seed/buffalo farm near my place, pecan groves about 50 miles away from my place, and apple orchards 120 miles from my place (towards KC--Lexington, MO area). On top of that, I'm currently in the Army in Seoul, Korea and I plan on buying my tractor while I'm home on leave in November (Deer Season).

Therefore, I don't have access to too many nut orchard mentors at the present time. If I did, I would get their advice in person. I've got a small window of opportunity to buy my tractor and get it right the first time. Like I said, I've read three years or better past threads in almost all subforums and the simple questions that may involve a Kubota BX operating on a 3 acre farmette may not apply to bigger farm work.

Back to my question. I've never seen R4s on farm tractors in my area but most farmers in my area are either full row crop or 1/2 row crop and 1/2 beef. I'm leaning towards R4s because, from what I understand, the nut harversting equipment likes smooth ground. I'm hoping not too have too many issues with getting stuck as I plan on never/rarley tilling/discing/plowing and keeping a thick stand of sod/grass/clover between the trees and by minimizing tractor use on the orchard floor when the ground is saturated. I'm hoping that R4s would minimize rutting if per chance harvest season (Aug/Sep) had higher than average rainfall and I had to take the tractor on the field. That being said, I know skinnier and knobbier is better--at least on pickups (despite current practices by most of the 4x4 hobbiests). A set of 7.50 bias ply will go places 40" super swampers will not. The skinner tires dig in (if they find a bottom) and go while the fat tires just spin. However, the skinney bias ply will leave some pretty dang deep ruts.

I'm hoping to have around 300-400 acres (not necessarily continous or one parcel and not counting another 200 acres that I should inherit a long time from now) within about a 5-7 mile radius by the time I retire--with the bulk planted in nut groves. Almost ALL of my spare cash will be spent/invested toward infrastructure over the course of the next 13 years so that by the time production starts and I am on miltary retirement I will not owe anything/very little on any equipment/buildings/land/capital improvements/house, etc.

I'm leaning toward black walnut rather than chestunts although return per acre would be signifcantly less but they don't require irrigation or refrigeration (losta infrastructure $s) unlike the chestnuts. Pecans normally require expensive bottom land and they are the smaller (but better tasting) northern varities and I can buy double or better "marginal" row crop land for the price of good bottom ground. Anybody have any other input? I'm hoping that a TBN member may have actual nut orchard experience or other orchard experience to share.

I'm hoping to have a big enough operation to leave to any future children and to have it a big enough business to make it worth their time to leave it intact as a family business and not bust it apart after I die. I believe it is far enough out in the boonies to avoid housing development invasions. My grandmother on my mother's side still has some row crop farms (in CRP) in the area, my great grandfather on my dad's side used to have a farm about three miles down the road (since strip mined for coal and reclaimed), and the rest of my ancestors used to own the bulk of the area in either farms, plantations, or small coal mines (Terrills, Gillispies, Halls, Shiftletts, Quinns); its in the blood. I should have made a seperate thread for this, I suppose.

Thanks for any assistance with this.

PS. The Universtity of MO Agro Forestry department is really pushing/advocating both black walnut, chestnut, and pecan production. I want to go that direction because I think it will be decent money coupled with a military retirement and I can afford to wait until the trees reach maturity and have a marketable crop. I can't afford the thousands of acres needed to get into row crops and I probably will never want livestock, although I would enjoy it (too hard to leave home for an extended period).

 

[Reg]

I wasn't attacking YOU for starting yet another R1 vs R4 thread, I agree your context is different to that of many of the other threads.

As we know the BIG thing bout R1s is that they have WAY less tendency to load up when in deep clay, they can DIG for a bottom - until they either find it or til down to the axles.
From your description of what you will be doing it seems very unlikely that the R1 advantage will apply to you. The lower ground pressure and better wear characteristics of R4s, with adequate traction for the conditions you described would seem to be your best choice.

We all want to "get it right" the first time, but a poor tire choice doesn't mean having to take a huge loss by trading the whole tractor 6, 12, or 24 months from now.
It really COULD BE a sane strategy to buy the tractor with a set of both rim & tire types.
Using the R1s for initial clearing, planting, "field work" and switching to the R4s when the soil is settled again and ground cover is established.

I switch seasonally between R4s and Turfs on one of my tractors, that works for me and I have all settled land.
I can still plow, disk and rototil WITHOUT a set of R1s for that tractor, but I don't have to get out and do field work before the last frost, I can wait for dry conditions.

From memory.... no guarantees... I think there have been some posts on orchard and nut farming from European contributors.
Landini tractors might have been the "topic" ? probably worth a search.

There is a way to search tbn from outside; I think you can use google for phrase or multi word searches and specify /site=tractorbynet ? ...something like that.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Go with a good R1 radial like Michelin and don't worry. Tell the tire dealer what you need and they will get you the proper tire. The R1 radial gives you plenty of traction while not compacting the soil like a bias and it rides a lot better also.

This shouldn't be a R1 vs R4 discussion since for your use it should be a bias vs radial discussion.

 

[SilverbackMP]

Reg,

I might end up buying an extra set of rims and tires. The only isssue would be that if I'm overseas, my father will be running the tractor and I am hoping to keep it as simple as possible for him. He will be mowing only (paid)--I'm planning on a 8-10' flail. I don't mind not haying some if not most years--I figure mulching the timothy/red clover mix with the flail will building humus and add N and perhaps lower fertilizer bills and I wouldn't be removing too many trace elements.

If I'm stationed back in the states, I can do other stuff--manhandle implements, etc. The second set of rims/tires may be more of a possibility when I get a pole barn built in a few years to put my tools, shop equipment, etc.

I search tractorbynet via google by typing in a phrase followed by tractorbynet--usually gets me fairly close.

Richard,

I now remember seeing a thread or two where you mentioned the Michelins--basically wide tires with an almost R1 tread (but not as deep) if I remember correctly. I will see about getting them installed when I order my tractor. I was going to buy used but with the incentives and financing going on right now I can't see not going new and getting a warrenty and peace of mind of knowing the service history from the beginning.

Thanks for the assistance fellas.

 

[chh]

I'd second the recommendation for R-1 radials. My MF 5455 has them on it from the factory. It is my first experience with radial tractor tires and so far I am impressed.

 

[Reg]

There are also "tween" tires.
R4 sort of width with R1 type of tread - I resist typing "Hybrid".
I think Firestoneag.com and Goodyearag.com (which now goes to Titan) both show them.

 

[slowzuki]

You need a good radial. Get the largest tire size offered for the model. The dealer won't always have them on the lot. If ruts are a problem, get the lightest model that will pull what you need.

R-4's for big tractors are not any wider and are usually smaller diameter which means worse rutting. In wet clay you may need to look at a crawler if you need to get in while its really wet. One of those Kubota M8540 crawlers or an italian model.