"real" farmers

Libertine · Jan 13, 2004

\"real\" farmers

A thread on HST vs gear subject (in the general buying forum) got off track (so, what else is new!) onto the issue of what a "real" farmer is. There were a number of interesting comments, but I am reproducing something posted by cowboydoc. I am not a "real" farmer, but have an interest in the subject and some others may be too. It relates to tractors since the origin of the tractors we use was in the agricultural area. So . . .

As far as a "real farmer" del I guess if you have to ask you wouldn't understand. What you or Rat would consider a "real" farmer though just slaps in the face most of the guys that put it on the line. Would you be willing to put everything you own up for collateral every year and borrow your net worth to get your crop in? Would work for nothing for a year or longer when crops are down? Would you go out in subzero weather and put your hands up in a downed cow to turn a breached calf? Do you get up everyday at 5am and go do chores for 2 or 3 hours in subzero weather every day, day and night?, Are you going to work for 3 or 4 days straight with no sleep going 24 hours a day because you need to get a crop in? And are you going to give up your vacations and everything else that it takes to make it? And this doesn't even include all the knowledge needed. 

cowboydoc:
1) Your list of the pressures on a "real" farmer, I suspect, barely even scratches the surface of what you, and others like you, face. But isn't that true of anyone who runs any business? Even some guy running a diner has to worry about everything from OSHA to meeting the mortgage payment, keeping food temperatures right, getting sued because someone gets sick, hiring decent labor, worrying about McDonald's moving in across the street, etc. etc. Someone coming in and buying a burger & coffee has little or no awareness of what it took to get the food in front of him, just as a housewife buying a T-Bone steak (from one of your cows) is oblivious to everything you had to go through to raise it, what the slaughterhouse had to contend with, what the trucker had to do to be sure it didn't spoil while being delivered, or even what the grocery store owners went through to get that pretty, nicely packaged piece of meat into the display case. I have long been aware I am probably unaware of what's involved in the other guys business since so many are unaware of what's involved in my little two-bit operation.

2) To me, a "real" farmer is someone who earns his livelihood from the raw production of food & fiber. If half of his livelihood is from that, then he is half a "real" farmer. Whether the farmer is operating on 50,000 acres, 5,000 acres, 500 acres, or even 50 acres or less, if he earns his livelihood from it he deserves to be considered a "real" farmer.

3) From the outside looking in, it seems to me that the primary problem in farming is the issue of debt. Borrow which requires more income, which requires a bigger operation, which requires more machinery etc., which requires more debt, which requires more . . . A treadmill, a debt treadmill.

JEH

kensfarm · Jan 13, 2004

Re: \"real\" farmers

My grandparents on both sides of family were cotton farmers in Alabama.. on my dad's side.. they had 12 children.. my dad was the youngest. On my mom's side they had 11 children.. my mom was the youngest. These were the days of manuel labour.. cotton was picked by hand into sacks.

My parents are now retired and raise a few beef cattle on their farm in VA.

I consider my neighbors "real" farmers.. one rents 3 farms.. raises replacement heifers.. some beef cattle.. hay.. soybeans.. and corn. But him & his wife have off-farm jobs.. he delivers papers from 1am - 6am.. and his wife works at Roy Rogers during the week.

My other neighbor is a dairy farmer.. was born & raised on the farm he now works.. his father is house bound from age & health. He milk's 3 times a day.. and also raises hay, alfalfa, and some corn.

I own & live on a farm but I am just a "hobby farmer".. but my day starts at 5:30am.. to feed the 6 steers I'm raising.. and get ready & out the door by 7am for the 9 to 5. 11 hrs later.. 6pm.. I'm back home and it's time to feed again & do chores. I'm usually done by 8:30-9:00pm and it's time for me to eat dinner. This past week has been pretty cold out.. 0-10 degrees in the mornings.. just glad my water lines haven't frozen.. nothing like finding out your hydrant is frozen.. after you've dumped the water troughs.

I have great respect for those who can make a living by farming.. and I'm sure there are many variations of what a "real" farmer is.. though my $ (not much) don't come from farming.. I love the life of being & working on the farm.

trkbldr · Jan 13, 2004

Re: \"real\" farmers

My dad was involved in farming for most of his working years. He farmed almost 400 acres of hillsides and rocks with a few acres of prime bottom land. He had a dairy operation with about 50 cows that had to be milked twice daily. First milking at 5:00 AM, the second at 5:00PM. There was also the tobacco crop, about 5 acres if I remember correctly. He worked the seed beds, sowed the seed, weeded the seed beds, thinned the plants, pulled the plants, transplanted the plants into the field that he spent time plowing, discing, and dragging, cultivated the ground after the plants were established, hoed between the plants to get the weeds the cultivator missed, sprayed the plants, suckered the plants, topped the plants after blooming, dropped the sticks, cut the tobacco, hauled it to the barn, hung it up on the tier rails, dropped it to the ground after it cured, stripped the leaves, tied the leaves and pressed them, and hauled it to the warehouse for sale. The only time he hired help was to cut and house the tobacco. My dad also had beef cattle, a few pigs, and several sheep. He grew his own corn for silage as well as crib corn. He did hire someone with the equipment to fill the silo and pick the crib corn. The neighboring farmer had the rake and baler for hay and they worked together getting each others hay up. All this plus the regular farm upkeep such as fencing, bushhogging, etc.. I did have one older brother who helped out some. I was a little young, but at 6 years old I was driving a tractor in the hayfield and tobacco patch. And speaking of tractors, he tended this farm with one tractor, a Ford golden jubilee. Dad retired from farming when I was 10 years old. I have had no desire to ever be a farmer. I have the greatest admiration for farmers, especially those that hold down another public job while trying to scratch out a living on their land. So, to answer the question "what is a REAL farmer", there are no doubt several opinions that will be voiced here. The IRS opinion, the income opinion, the number of acres opinion, and so on. I just want to say that in MY opinion, my dad was a REAL farmer.

del · Jan 13, 2004

Re: \"real\" farmers

Since I started this "real" farmer fork in the HST post I
thought I would say something.

The original question was rhetorical, I wasn't really looking
or an answer.

I was just chafing at my bit a little that the initial
discussion's tone changed. It seemed to me that a poster
was saying if you're not a "real" farmer you have no business
saying anything about HST's.

My feelings are that everyone can contribute. If I decide to
talk about he D11 Dozer that I don't have and someone who owns
a Kubota BX1500 etc wants to post I welcome his comments regardless
of whether he has experience with a D11. When you're talking
to a couple of guys at the gas station and someone else says
something you don't tell them to get lost of blow them off.
At least I don't.

The same individual then stated I was making fun of farmers which
is bizarre. If someone makes 10 cents selling strawberries they
are a farmer, maybe a part time farmer, hobby farmer, gentleman
farmer, whatever. (IMHO)

Anyone who grows something that someone other than his family
will eat or use is a farmer or rancher. (sorry ranchers)

Even if you GIVE IT AWAY. One of the food banks has a retired
guy like that, has a few acres and donates everything.

I suppose this all could have been avoided if the individual
had instead of using "REAL FARMERS" simply described the
uses of HST he was discussing has "Severe Users" or something.

Like; "Severe Users have a different opinion about..." I've
received emails from quite a few folks, most understood, some
did not and for that I apologize. I guess I just like it
better when the forum is inclusive of every poster instead
of trying to separate people out into categories. From a
human courtesy standpoint it makes sense. From an information
gathering motive it also makes sense. The fellow that responds
to your posts may state he just bought his first tractor, a
20 horse this or that. You never know what his life experience
has taught him. Maybe he has worked with hydraulics on a boat
for 30 years!

Anyway, that's where I was coming from.

Best regards,

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BillyP · Jan 13, 2004

Re: \"real\" farmers

Speaking of tobacco seed.... Can you buy such seed or is it controlled? My grandpa used to grow his own tobacco but I've never seen seed for sale.

Bob_Skurka · Jan 13, 2004

Re: \"real\" farmers

 it seems to me that the primary problem in farming is the issue of debt. Borrow which requires more income, which requires a bigger operation, which requires more machinery etc., which requires more debt, which requires more . . . A treadmill, a debt treadmill.

JEH 

I think this is common with most any business. I am not a real farmer but I am a real businessman. I went to college with some real farmers and became friends with them and found out just how similar it is to be an independant business owner and a farmer. Both work 70+ hour weeks. Both are the first ones on the job and the last ones off the job. Both get paid after everyone else gets paid. Both borrow up to their ears. Both are presumed to be rich by the people around them.

The critical issue is to get out of as much debt as possible. The constant need to grow is fuel by the debt and the need to service the debt, which leads to more debt which require more work. . .

del · Jan 13, 2004

Re: \"real\" farmers

Bob, your last paragraph would go well on the title
page of a business economics text book. About says it all!

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poorboy · Jan 13, 2004

Re: \"real\" farmers

Billy you sure can. About every farm store around here has them in the spring. In all varieties.
Patrick

Bob_Skurka · Jan 14, 2004

Re: \"real\" farmers

Del . . . I am in a business totally different that farming, but similar in some ways. My business is very capital intensive. Instead of having lots of expensive land like a farmer has, I have highly regulated and highly taxed inventory. Instead of $100,000+ combines & tractors, I have a fleet of trucks, and a warehouse full of automatic conveyors. To get into farming you need a lot of land and that costs a lot of money, 300 acres is probably the minimum size farm in my area and that is subsistance farming where the farmer has a second job. Land is several thousand an acre so it is easy to have a million dollars tied up in land, and often much more. To get into my business you need several million dollars worth of inventory, much of which is not the cost of goods, but the cost of federal and state taxes. But in business or farming, debt can force you to do all sorts of things. I do my best to run with minimal debts, keeping my salary low, and my staff lean. The parallels to farming are very similar, but the labor is totally different.

There are lots of business that are easy to get into with minimal investments. Farming is not one of them!

kensfarm · Jan 14, 2004

Re: \"real\" farmers

Here's a picture of my grandparents holding my mom.. they had past away before I was born. My mom's mother was part Cherokee Indian. My dad had told me that the only time you didn't see him w/ a hat on was at church. Not sure what tool he was holding.. maybe a sling blade/sickle bar?