Retail Fuel Stations: Your BioDiesel % content, Availability, and Experiences ?

[3930dave]

DiamondPilot made a comment that got me thinking about this..... B10 or higher is common in his neck'o'the woods, not so mine.

Geographic Location: (if not in your Signature) ?

Biodiesel % in Retail Fuel: B5, 10, 20....... ?

Price difference compared to Full Dino (traditional) Diesel ?

Availability: Limited, Common, or Mandatory in All Stations ?

Operating Experiences: Fuel Filter plugging ? Mileage Increase/Decrease ? Algae contamination ? Water contamination ?

Favourite Biodiesel info sites, esp. ones with Geographic information ?

Where I am, (Central Ontario, Canada) there is very little/no Biodiesel available, and what I've found so far is very vague about % content.

I drive to the USA occasionally in a personal diesel vehicle. If I'm heading to an area where I can only buy B20, I'd prefer to know ahead of time (Pack a fuel filter and/or extra fuel !).

I expect to see more Biodiesel options/mandatory consumption in the future, and am interested in learning more. My driving is typically done in Canada and the USA, but would love to hear what is going on with BioDiesel elsewhere in the world.

Rgds, D.

 

[newbury]

Excellent timing.
Bio is creeping in.

Geographic Location: 1. Alexandria, VA 2.Fulton (NE) MS
Biodiesel % in Retail Fuel: B5, 10, 20....... ? 1. Virtually none 2.WalMart/Murphy "5 to 20"

Price difference compared to Full Dino (traditional) Diesel ? Same

Availability: Limited, Common, or Mandatory in All Stations ? 1. limited 2. creeping in

Operating Experiences: Fuel Filter plugging ? Mileage Increase/Decrease ? Algae contamination ? Water contamination ? none

Favourite Biodiesel info sites, esp. ones with Geographic information ?
none

I'm especially concerned because VW states a max of 5% bio for my TDI, although I'm pretty sure up to B20 works fine.

for my 2 7.3's and tractors the extra lube is good.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Like I stated earlier in another thread, in Indiana all gas must be 10% ethanol. All fuel. Even marinas and co ops have switched over in my area due to availability but off road vehicles are exempt if you can find real gas. I buy about 150 gallons of gas per week in the summer and have not seen any real gas since 2010. As we all know it plays havoc on carbs and fuel lines.

Diesel must all be 2% but most around my area is 10% I have seen no ill effects but on old equipment some have reported fuel lines that break down.

Chris

 

[schmism]

2 places to buy 100% pure gas (no ethanol) race track for 110 octane and small airport for 100LL

 

[3930dave]

Like I stated earlier in another thread, in Indiana all gas must be 10% ethanol. All fuel. Even marinas and co ops have switched over in my area due yo availability but off road vehicles are exempt if you can find real gas. I buy about 150 gallons of gas in the summer and have not seen any real gas since 2010. As we all know it plays havoc on carbs and fuel lines.

Diesel must all be 2% but most around my area is 10% I have seen no ill effects but on old equipment some have reported fuel lines that break down.

Chris

Chris - is the diesel at B10 statewide in Indiana, or just your county ? Is there a local BioDiesel plant that is being supported ? (If so, who owns it - the Governor's BIL ? :laughing.

I'm curious about the roll-out issues, and why BioDiesel is gaining much more traction in some areas vs. others.

Overall, (Canada/USA) I feel that BioDiesel implementation is about where Ethanol in Gasoline was 10 years ago. YMMV (); part of why I started this thread was to identify regional differences.

Rgds, D.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Chris - is the diesel at B10 statewide in Indiana, or just your county ? Is there a local BioDiesel plant that is being supported ? (If so, who owns it - the Governor's BIL ? :laughing.

I'm curious about the roll-out issues, and why BioDiesel is gaining much more traction in some areas vs. others.

Overall, (Canada/USA) I feel that BioDiesel implementation is about where Ethanol in Gasoline was 10 years ago. YMMV (); part of why I started this thread was to identify regional differences.

Rgds, D.

State wide. Yes, one bio plant 3.5 miles from me, on 40 miles, and another about 100. There are probably more but these are the ones I know about.

Chris

 

[Furu]

B5 is very common here in the PNW (WA) and I like it. I think it burns a bit cleaner than straight petrol but I can't support that scientifically just my feel from exhaust. Supposedly from the reading I have done the lubricity of biodiesel is higher than ULSD but it has issues that are well known as detriments. The same readings state that at the B5 level the lubricity added by B5 is good but the negatives have not yet gotten high enough to be a problem. Have not seen enough evidence at the B10 level to form an opinion yet but am waiting.

 

[3930dave]

Thanks Chris. Having the plants local makes sense.

Furu - I'm at the same info stage as you. I would be comfortable using B5 (and would welcome the lubrication of B5) in my 7.3, but am concerned about jumping to a concentration higher than that in an older engine, due to the potential solvent like cleaning action. I'm not against changing fuel filters, just don't want to be forced to when I'm trying to take a driving vacation !

I found some Biodiesel at a rural cardlock, up near Lake Huron (Canadian side, Ontario) last summer, but decided not to fill there as the labeling on the pump was unclear about the Bio content, and there was nobody around to ask.

Rgds, D.

 

[dodge man]

In my area, Western Illinois, I don't THINK it mandatory for fuel to have bio or ethanol, but its very common. I can find pure gas in my town, but its only 87 octane. All the diesel pumps say its between B5 and B20, but you don't know how much bio. I can't find pure diesel in my town at the pump, but the local farm supplier has it in off road.

As far as price goes, I can't tell the price difference for pure diesel since I can't find it. Ethano fuel is always cheaper. For example, pure gas in 87 octane is about $0.10 per gallon more than 89 octane with 10% ethanol.

I've never had any problems running bio in my Dodge with a Cummins, but I've had my Kubota plug up fuel filters twice in 5 years in the winter. I never knew for sure what the problem was, if it was dirt, water, gelling or what. I don't think it was algae.

 

[Johnp33]

You will find that very few places do not have Bio in there diesel fuel.
The bio is added as the very best lubricity aditive, and cetain booster. Just because it doesn't say it on the pump does not mean it is not in there.

 

[3930dave]

Dave - I'm getting the impression that there is far more B10-B20 in the USA than I previously thought. Interesting..... and definitely food for thought (well, more so my diesel tank) for my next roadtrip. Thanks everybody for posting !

I'd like to keep this thread focused on Diesel fuel issues and discussions, as there is no shortage of discussion and rants (mine included) against Ethanol in Gasoline. But, John's comment brings up a good point, relating to how Gasoline is marketed.

In my province, gas stations pretty consistently display their Maximum % Ethanol in Gasoline, at the pump. Accuracy, and whether these claims are ever tested, is a whole other issue, but John's comment reminded me to find out what the practice and/or legislation is concerning labeling BioDiesel here.

I'm actually rather receptive to using alternative fuels in my diesels, but am wary of creating fuel system havoc in machines that I rely on. I was well aware of the "cleaning out the fuel system/plugging diesel fuel filters" that can & usually does happen when switching over to 100% (properly prepared too) Waste Vegetable Oil. What concerns me is that this solvent/cleaning action has created plugging problems at much lower ratios than 100% WVO.

(Further reading: Any established supplier selling WVO conversion kits should have a prominent note on their site warning buyers about the cleaning action/filter plugging properties during at least the first several tanks of WVO. As long as you stock up on fuel filters and plan for several short changes, it's all doable.)

The Juries Still Out...... Do you find people getting into fuel transition problems at the B10, B15, B20 or __________ Levels ? Best I've come up with so far is "That Depends". Older vehicle maintenance/useage patterns and fuel quality are some of the factors that come into play.

Elsewhere, somebody posted about Deere testing and validating with B2 (2% biodiesel). No sane major manufacturer is likely to jump out with "Go ahead and use B20 in anything we've ever made" anytime soon. The potential service liability is just way too high.

I'm receptive to alternate fuels, just not big on shooting myself in the foot.

Rgds, D.

 

[Copperhead]

I have been using between B5 and B15 for over 5 years now due to the wide availability in the Midwest part of the country. I go thru over 21,000 gallons of the stuff a year with no issues. No price difference between regular diesel and bio blend versions at the pumps I frequent.

Now to be fair here, some have experienced fuel filter issues when going to bio. But that is primarily due to the fact that bio has a "cleaning" effect that will loosen up residue in tanks and lines and that makes it to the filter and can make it so you have to change them sooner. But after using bio for a while, that all goes away. There were bio quality issues early on when it was being put into the market, but that has pretty much been solved by national bio standards adherence.

As a side note, one thing about bio is its lubricity factor. A simple 2% blend of bio will raise the lubricity of diesel higher than any additive on the market and raise it to pre-ULSD, and almost pre-LSD levels. There is nothing on the market that can even get into the same league as a B5 or B10 blend.

If you are storing bio blends for a while, then critter problems can occur more often. It is probably a good idea to pour a little biocide like FPPF Killem into stored fuel to prevent algae growth and contamination. Actually doing it to any diesel that is stored for a while is good advice, but bio especially.

 

[ilander]

I tried our local co-ops red dyed bio mix about 3 years ago in two tractors, a older JD510 loader backhoe and a 2005 Case IH DX25E. I do not recall the specifications for that diesel other than it was a #2 summer blend.

There was no noticeable difference in summer performance or starting for either tractor.

When winter came it was an absolute nightmare.

The JD would start, but very hard, missed a lot until warm. I had never had a problem winter starting either tractor on summer blend fuel as long as they were plugged in with occasional fuel additives.

The Case would not start at all and it was not that cold out, maybe 20 above. I plugged it in, both block heater and magnetic oil pan heater, after about 3 hours the engine temp was close to normal. All it would do was fire once in a while on one cylinder. I put fuel additives in the fuel designed for hard starting, changed both filters, purged the lines, put a space heater on the fuel injector pump in addition to block and oil pan heaters and then it would fire a little on another cylinder and sort of take off on it's own, missing and smoking then quit.

I thought the glow plugs were burned out. A continuity check showed they were good.

I finally drained the fuel tank, got some 100% petroleum #1 dyed diesel, put in the fuel additive, changed both filters again, purged the lines. Plugged both engine heaters in, put the space heater on the injector pump, and let her sit until the whole engine was very warm to the touch.

It then started, missed a little, then ran smooth.

Never, never will I put that in a diesel again. The tree huggers and spotted owl lovers can put that stuff where the sun don't shine.

 

[3930dave]

Hear ya ilander - fighting with any engine is never fun, but esp. a diesel in winter !

Copperhead sounds like he's had a good run, perhaps the quality in your area has improved. But, it would take somebody local with good experience to convince me after what you've been through.

Thanks guys. Rgds, D.

 

[ilander]

3930: What made matters worse, a friend told me a story where the state of Minnesota used this stuff in their winter road clearing trucks and ruined their injector pumps. Now this is second hand information I have no way of verifying, but at that time his story scared me to death, for having to buy a fuel pump would be several hundred dollars.

For some reason freezing this bio fuel harmed it. I had some stored over the winter, and used it all up in the JD510 the following summer. The first summer when fresh the JD started OK, but the second summer after a winter freeze it was hard starting in that on a hot summer day it had to be ethered and did not start without ether until I went back to 100% petroleum fuel. I did not have the guts to put it in the Case.

 

[3930dave]

3930: What made matters worse, a friend told me a story where the state of Minnesota used this stuff in their winter road clearing trucks and ruined their injector pumps. Now this is second hand information I have no way of verifying, but at that time his story scared me to death, for having to buy a fuel pump would be several hundred dollars.

For some reason freezing this bio fuel harmed it. I had some stored over the winter, and used it all up in the JD510 the following summer. The first summer when fresh the JD started OK, but the second summer after a winter freeze it was hard starting in that on a hot summer day it had to be ethered and did not start without ether until I went back to 100% petroleum fuel. I did not have the guts to put it in the Case.

ilander - Understandable, as some of the newer fuel pumps are WAY more than just a few hundred $. What I can see happening with some of the newer diaphragm pumps is early plugging of the filter leading to fuel starvation and tearing of the diaphragm.

Old diesels engines were simple, and could run on a pretty diverse range of fuels reasonably well, and with little risk of damage. This is one of the reasons that old, mechanically injected diesels are coveted for Vegetable oil conversions. Historically, people didn't have to pay as much attention to the diesel fuel quality and condition as it was stored.

One of the reasons I started this thread was my recent understanding that many USA States were much further along than I realized with widespread BioDiesel retailing. I'm curious about people's experience, in part for my education for the fuels that will likely start appearing in Canada, but also for when I'm taking road-trips to the USA.

With the new BioDiesel fuels, vigilance appears to be critical. Both in terms of vehicle maintenance (esp. regular if not early Fuel Filter changes), and storage practices if you store onsite.

I'm thinking that Copperhead's comment about proactive use of biocide is really critical with BioDiesel.

Biology was not my strong science, so I won't be using the right terms when I say that I suspect the big breakthrough is going to come from some specialized nano-tech organism that is optimized for growing BioDiesel. It will be super-efficient, but also tuned to minimize the problems that have happened with some of the BioDiesel that has been processed in the past.

I have a feeling that this whole field of science is going to get really interesting over the next 5-10 years.

Rgds, D.

 

[Copperhead]

3930: What made matters worse, a friend told me a story where the state of Minnesota used this stuff in their winter road clearing trucks and ruined their injector pumps. Now this is second hand information I have no way of verifying, but at that time his story scared me to death, for having to buy a fuel pump would be several hundred dollars.

For some reason freezing this bio fuel harmed it. I had some stored over the winter, and used it all up in the JD510 the following summer. The first summer when fresh the JD started OK, but the second summer after a winter freeze it was hard starting in that on a hot summer day it had to be ethered and did not start without ether until I went back to 100% petroleum fuel. I did not have the guts to put it in the Case.

Minnesota did have some issues early on. The bio that was being sold was not up to National Biodiesel Board standards. The glycerin from production had not been removed properly and it caused some real heartburn for some folks. They seem to have that taken care of now.

I have been getting most of my bio in the Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, Missouri areas. Seems pretty consistent thru that part of the country. I have gotten some in other states, but not enough to form any opinion on whether it is up to par. The areas I primarily get it in seem to rely more on soy oil for base source. Some areas, from what I have heard, have a higher concentration of animal fats and other sources for their base stocks and the quality is suspect.

Dave, you are on top of things. There is a major move to use a special class of Algae that produces oils that are ideal for biodiesel production. The move is to have "farms" of algae production near power plants so that the heated water would make a good living environment for it. It has shown a lot of promise. It doesn't take a very large area to produce a substantial amount of algae. And this algae can produce a substantial amount of oils in relation to their mass. San Francisco recently put many diesel city vehicles on a algae sourced biodiesel "diet".

 

[3930dave]

Minnesota did have some issues early on. The bio that was being sold was not up to National Biodiesel Board standards. The glycerin from production had not been removed properly and it caused some real heartburn for some folks. They seem to have that taken care of now.

I have been getting most of my bio in the Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, Missouri areas. Seems pretty consistent thru that part of the country. I have gotten some in other states, but not enough to form any opinion on whether it is up to par. The areas I primarily get it in seem to rely more on soy oil for base source. Some areas, from what I have heard, have a higher concentration of animal fats and other sources for their base stocks and the quality is suspect.

Dave, you are on top of things. There is a major move to use a special class of Algae that produces oils that are ideal for biodiesel production. The move is to have "farms" of algae production near power plants so that the heated water would make a good living environment for it. It has shown a lot of promise. It doesn't take a very large area to produce a substantial amount of algae. And this algae can produce a substantial amount of oils in relation to their mass. San Francisco recently put many diesel city vehicles on a algae sourced biodiesel "diet".

Copperhead - that glycerin issue makes sense.... you have me remembering a bit from veggy oil research - I don't recall enough to mix a batch on the fly, but I do recall being warned about glycerin.

Glycerin is an example of a problem that you can expect a backyard hobbyist (with a bit of education) to deal with and mitigate, but not a consumer.

For the mass market, this is where production standards are going to be critical. Is this the right website ?

Biodiesel - America's first advanced biofuel!

If so, coupla questions:

1) Is ASTM D6751 the primary spec you are thinking of ?

2) The site does mention using animal fats. So it appears that animal fats can be used successfully, given the right production controls ?

I can see where animal fat is a high energy source (mostly, that's what saw my Dad and his brothers through cutting wood in the Canadian winter), but may be trickier to process into BioDiesel. That brings us back to needing a relevant production standard, like ASTM D6751.

3) At the retail pump level, does the National Biodiesel Board have any consistent high visibility sticker program to indicate that the pump's BioDiesel has met their standards ?

YES, the algae is what I was thinking of. Business and Government overhead/interference aside, I see this development breaking down into mostly 2 stages.

A) Getting the Recipe Right, consistently. Takes lots of lab and field trial hours, with careful logging of results. Part of why these small (by national standards) city sponsored trials are really critical. It can take thousands of test hours to find a minor issue (algae XYZ in these concentrations, plugs fuel filters 5% faster. I'm not saying that is a known problem, just using that as an example. If it was, I don't think anybody would really have a issue changing their fuel filters 5% sooner using a domestic fuel source that does a much better job of lubricating the fuel system).

B) Once the Algae recipe is proven, then comes the challenge of Scaling Up Production. Most people (me included) have difficulty getting their head around how big the traditional oil industry is.

But this Step (A) HAS TO BE 200% right, no questions asked. If production scales and tens of thousands of diesel fuel pumps get destroyed, then that will be the end of retail BioDiesel. (Until we are at $250/barrel oil that is...... ).

Propagating BioDiesel is mostly about getting the Technology right, then making the Business end of things work. Both tasks can be non-trivial, but I'm hoping we (Canada/USA and any other country looking for alternate domestic energy) get there sooner rather than later.

Rgds, D.