Satoh 370D will not start

[nepa]

I just bought this tractor. It started OK when driven onto my trailer. I ran it a couple of times since buying it and was hard starting but ran well once going. Today, no amount of cranking is getting it started. I give it the 30+ seconds on the glow plugs, which I removed and tested good and I know that they are getting power. I even warmed the head with a heat gun and then fed warm air into the intake with no change. The first ten seconds of cranking produces gray puffs of smoke. After ten seconds, the smoke is black and cranking speed increases as if it was going to start but never does. Next cranking, the puffs start black, go the gray then back to black after 10 seconds. It has a new air filter. The antifreeze level is always the same so I do not think water is getting in causing the gray smoke. Maybe compression but it ran flawlessly once it got started. Where do I go next? Thanks.

 

[thepumpguysc]

I would loosen the lines AT THE INJECTORS a couple of turns, to SEE if theres air or fuel there.. while cranking the engine.
IF you find its pumping air.. Loosen the feed line going INTO the inj. pump & crank the engine.. MAKE SURE you have fuel there..
IF you have fuel in both places..
IF its possible, remove the side plate/throttle assembly & make sure the control rack isn't stuck in the idle or shut-off position.

 

[PILOON]

The injector pump can not pump air! only fuel.

As suggested (as I have done a few times) crack the fittings at the injector and spin the engine until fuel spurts out of the fittings.
It should then cough sputter a tad and run smoothly.

Been there done that!
(have Mitsu 180D, very similar machine.)

 

[thepumpguysc]

Check to SEE if the engine has a lift/supply pump between the fuel tank & the injection pump..
Some engines have a pump, either electric or engine driven.. & some do not, they are gravity fed..
You HAVE TO HAVE fuel TO the injection pump before any pumping will begin..
When you turn the key on, do you hear any buzzing, like a little pump running?

 

[nepa]

Check to SEE if the engine has a lift/supply pump between the fuel tank & the injection pump..
Some engines have a pump, either electric or engine driven.. & some do not, they are gravity fed..
You HAVE TO HAVE fuel TO the injection pump before any pumping will begin..
When you turn the key on, do you hear any buzzing, like a little pump running?

First let me say that I appreciate all your help as I am very frustrated. There is no supply pump, just gravity feed through the oem filter to the injector pump. I will try cracking the fitting at the injectors, but the black puffs of smoke while trying to start the engine tells me that fuel is getting to the cylinders but not igniting fully. I guess that I should do a compression test but I do not have the equipment. I have read previous posts hinting at cracked piston or worn rings but the last time I ran the engine (to warm up the oil before changing) to ran perfectly. I don't know if this means anything, but I have not been able to get the engine started since the oil change (15W40) and the oil is already as black as can be with just cranking. And please, where is that shut off plate referred to? All the linkage outside the injector pump moves freely. I was going to remove all the old fuel and replace with fresh but also consider this an exercise in futility since it ran well up to now. Thanks to all.

 

[PILOON]

Oil will get black within the first 1/2 hr, simply the nature of a diesel engine.
Since it ran well B4 the oil change that rules out many things (like compression cracked block etc)

Dirt in the tank screen can cause starvation. A tank fuel cap that won't vent is another cause, however these would let the engine run for a short period B4 quitting,

If that engine is like mine you have a solenoid fuel shut off up near the injector pump. It needs 12 volts to keep open (could it be a pulled wire in that circuit?)
Using a test lead you can power the solenoid valve with power directly from the battery as a test but even simpler is with switch on check for 12 volts at the solenoid.

From all that you have said I am convinced it will be something embarrassingly simple.

 

[nepa]

This engine does not have an electric fuel shut-off, only mechanical. I just cracked the fuel lines to the injectors 4 turns. A small amount of fuel dripped out of both while cranking. I also opened the purge screws a little at the fuel filter and fuel dripped both for the input and exit. While cranking, puffs of black smoke come out of the exhaust but the engine does not catch. The exhaust pipe is extremely sooty. As I said in the initial post, I replaced the air filter. It looked to be the first one, decades old. It was filthy. Is it possible that the engine was running super rich and the injectors are fouled to the point that they do not spray fuel properly? I put Power Service Diesel Kleen into the fuel but it might not have reached the injectors yet. Can injectors be pulled and cleaned out of the engine? I am going to try to start the tractor by pulling it with my Kubota and letting up the clutch. If it starts, give it a long, high speed run. Wish me luck.

 

[nepa]

Well I got it started easily by pulling it with my Kubota and letting up the clutch. I ran it for an hour and it ran smoothly both at idle and high speed, with no smoke, and seemed to have its usual power. I drove it into the garage but figured a half hour later that I should try to restart it while still warm. Th engine turned very fast with the starter mower, produced it's usual puffs of black smoke, but the engine never caught. What next?

 

[thepumpguysc]

Sometimes all it takes is to drag'r around by the hair of her head.. it worked on my sister..LOL
Seriously tho.. it might be low on compression??
It might be that pumping plungers in the injection pump are worn to the point that, its pumping fuel, but to enough to start the engine??
Have you tried to start it w/ the air cleaner completely off the engine?? I ALWAYS START ANY diagnosis w/o the air cleaner..
Unhook it from the intake manifold.. THAT WAY, you eliminate any mouse nests in the hose..
& it might have a "start spring" that's broken?? The control rack is not going to the starting position??
How fast are the GP's working?? are they getting CHERRY RED & WHITE HOT?? in 10 seconds or less..
Look at the bright side>> at least you KNOW it runs..

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

Low compression. Been there. If you crank it fast enough (i.e. pull start it) it will run because the air charge doesn't have time to leak past the piston/rings and that's why when you do get it to run it stays running in this case. The black smoke is mostly due to the glow plugs burning the fuel in a lack of oxygen (low air charge). Re-ring or bore out are your options. To confirm take the valve cover off and watch smoke come up through the head (piston blow-by) while cranking. A new diesel should have zero detectable leakage.

I just did a re-ring in this thread for reference (go to my post with videos) which should help you some:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/iseki/384024-low-compression-ke70-need-parts.html#post5003989

 

[thepumpguysc]

As long as you have glow plugs, you can buy a compression tester kit from harbor freight & do a compression test..
The kit is gonna be ALOT cheaper than an engine overhaul that you didn't need.. You GOTTA FIND OUT the condition of the internals BEFORE ripping it apart.
Spending 2-3k & having the same problem, isn't the way to proceed..
Pull out a glow plug.. get the width & thread pitch.. compare THAT to the size & pitch of the GP adaptors in the compression tester kit..
It MAY OR MAY NOT have the correct one..
A compression tester is gonna be the least expensive and most useful tool you'll ever buy, for engine diagnostics..

 

[nepa]

After all that I have done, I also believe that the problem is insufficient compression to get good starting ignition. Before spending a lot of money I am going to try RESTORE in the oil and AMSOIL cetane booster in some fresh fuel. I'll pull it started again with the Kubota and let it run for a couple of hours. Are the valves on this engine adjustable? What is the cold gap? I guess that this should be checked before the run. Thanks again for all the help.

 

[Ilikeurtractor]

Valve lash is 0.014" cold on both intake and exhaust. I've never seen this get significantly (i.e. where it would cause starting/running) out of adjustment. These engines are notorious for losing compression due to cylinder/ring wear. That's the only real problem I've ever seen and I've seen and heard about it on many. Certainly do get a compression tester though. Well worth the money and time to use. The real problem is understanding if a reading of around 350 psig is good or bad. Spec calls for 450 psig IIRC. Definitely 250 psig or less will need attention. A leak down tester is another tool you can buy. I've read claims about compression testers not really giving you great data to go by but a leak down is better. My best indicator has been how well the engine is starting if all other systems are functioning correctly. Other than running out of fuel I've never seen pumps or injectors bad enough to cause problems (just my experience for these Mitsubishi engines). Glow plugs do need to be functioning and also during cranking, not just pre-heating.