Sawmill question about posts/beams.

[N80]

Got a new saw mill. New at this. I need a pile of pine 4x4s for deck railing. Looking at store bought 4x4s most of them include heartwood from the middle of the tree. I assume that this gives them some stability in terms of bending and twisting. Just wondering how critical this is because if it is critical you can only get one post out of each log. Of course you can get other boards etc from the log so its not that I'd be wasting it. It just means more work since 1 log = 1 post.

 

[Rockbadchild]

what kind of pine are you using ? … the side of your tree will actually be stronger then the center but yes it will be more prone to bending and twisting are you drying it before using it ? will you see these 4x4 ? depending of the type of wood you are using and the drying methods it will be worse but i would do what ever makes sense …

 

[N80]

Short term drying. Loblolly pine. They will be showing. They will be deck railing. Not a fancy deck. They will remain sough cut. Heavily stained with opaque stain.

 

[newbury]

Most of the big box stores sell the lowest quality stuff they can get by with.
(I'm assuming

They will remain sough cut.

was to be rough cut.)
How big are your trees?
If you can cut 4x4's without heartwood or barkwood, and dry them correctly, stickered etc. they will be better. But you might need trees of 20" diameter or more.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Rule of thumb is, for beams, you either want the heart "centered" in the beam, or NO heart wood in the beam at all....

SR

 

[N80]

Rule of thumb is, for beams, you either want the heart "centered" in the beam, or NO heart wood in the beam at all....

SR

Excellent. That simplifies things a lot. I should be able to get at least 2 with no heartwood and one with centered heartwood out of most of the logs in my pile.

Got plenty of standing pines that are 20” if I need them.

 

[Rockbadchild]

so

Short term drying. Loblolly pine. They will be showing. They will be deck railing. Not a fancy deck. They will remain sough cut. Heavily stained with opaque stain.

Loblolly pine is more of a finish wood it won’t bend too much it will be more prone to cracking but i am not too familiar with that wood i could be wrong …. but i would defiantly do a bunch in one log … keep in mind the wood grain and the sun exposure side with installing and it should be good

 

[N80]

so

Loblolly pine is more of a finish wood it won’t bend too much it will be more prone to cracking but i am not too familiar with that wood i could be wrong …. but i would defiantly do a bunch in one log … keep in mind the wood grain and the sun exposure side with installing and it should be good

Thanks guys. These rails will go on a log cabin. Actually a porch rather than a deck but a deck will follow. The logs on the cabin are pine also and they are all checked so checking will be fine. The rails on the steps leading down from the porch were made with commercial treated 4x4s. They have lasted 10 years but they are cracked, twisted and due for replacement soon as well. The issue on the porch is sun. The rails I'm going to make won't get much rain but they get summer sun a good 8-10 hours a day I'd guess.

@rockmalenfant I think most people refer to loblolly as yellow pine. I'm guessing most of what I'm planting now are some sort of loblolly hybrid. I have a mix of planted and volunteer pines.

 

[plowhog]

I'm still new at this, but if you are cutting green lumber and immediately using it (without drying) that could be problematic due to warping and twisting. If you do that, make sure it is will fastened well to inhibit some of the wood movement.

I'd suggest watching some youtube videos on doing quartersawing of your logs. Even if you don't quartersaw, as its more work, you better understand which boards will warp faster and more severely than others-- even though they came out of the same log.

I'm going to start quartersawing all my best woods-- madrone and oak. It simply delivers better, more stable lumber. With wood that moves a lot (madrone), I hope it improves the number of "good pieces" I have after drying. But when it comes to pine, I'm going to keep doing it the easy way.

 

[N80]

I'll dry these 4x4s a month or so. I know they say a year is better but I've got some posts in the drying pile that are at least 50% lighter than when first cut and they've only been on there a few months. We'll see. Even a total disaster here won't be a big deal. If they twist into pretzels I'll take them down and start again. Porch hasn't had rails on it for 15 years.

I have not tried quarter sawing yet. Probably not worthwhile with pine.....but I could be very wrong.

I have a nice 18" white oak that I do plan on quarter sawing as soon as I get my head around it. Planning on using it for built in shelves in a dressing room. It is actually my closet/laundry room but I still want them to be stable but even more so I want that handsome quarter sawn oak look. I will finish them in a typical oak stain. That's a ways down the road though. I want to have the technique down before cutting that tree up.

I now have some large red oak logs that I will practice quarter sawing on.

My mill is totally manual. No hydraulics. So yes, all the log turning and re-sawing will be a lot of work.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I'm going to start quartersawing all my best woods-- madrone and oak. It simply delivers better, more stable lumber. With wood that moves a lot (madrone), I hope it improves the number of "good pieces" I have after drying. But when it comes to pine, I'm going to keep doing it the easy way.

Learn how to "properly" sticker and dry your lumber, and you won't have all the stability problems.

Furthermore, there's a HUGE amount of waste to "properly" quarter saw lumber.

SR

 

[Sawyer Rob]

I have not tried quarter sawing yet. Probably not worthwhile with pine.....but I could be very wrong.

You are right, and like most softwoods, pine dries quite fast...

SR

 

[s219]

I saw loads of Loblolly for posts and beams -- it's a real good structural lumber (one of the SYP species prized for framing lumber) however it will wander if you don't saw it properly and stack/dry it properly. That said, I have great luck framing with green lumber since I can get it up and pinned into place before the wood can wander.

SYP loses quite a bit of moisture and weight within 2-3 weeks at average humidity. I've seen it get down to 25% moisture content after just 3 weeks at 57% humidity in my storage area where I run a dehumidifier.

I have never sawn 4x4 but do lots of 6x6 and larger posts, and various size beams. I tend to reserve smaller trees for posts, or the tops of bigger trees. It means I can make a nice post with the heartwood centered and not have much waste. The larger logs go to better uses such as boards or 2x lumber, but you can certainly plan things to slice off some nice lumber and save the core of the big log for a post.

You may want to setup a toeboard if you don't have one already, as it will help keeping the heartwood centered when the log is tapered. This will greatly improve the yield and quality when sawing posts, especially when using smaller logs. For a dimensional 4x4 (3.5x3.5) you just need a 5" log if you don't mind eased corners.

Unless there is a reason you want 4x4 specifically, consider going up a little in size. It will be more stable and it will probably look better too. A 4x4 can be awful spindly looking as a deck post.

 

[s219]

One other piece of advice about Loblolly -- get the logs to the mill as soon as possible after the tree is felled. This wood loves to develop internal stresses as the logs dry out, and can be a real bucking bronco on the mill when that happens.

 

[N80]

Thanks guys.

In terms of stickers, I've got most everything on 1x1 stickers that are two feet apart. Posts and 2x lumber are in one big stack outdoors with a tarp just on the top. Planning a separate stack for 2x lumber soon. Pine boards are in a smaller stack in a shed. Oak and ash boards go in my basement at home. So far (several months) I'm not seeing a lot of warping or twisting. Time will tell of course.

The 4x4s are for deck/porch railing not actual posts. Nothing structural. They match the back deck and front porch steps. The actual porch and back deck upright posts are 6x6. For the carport I'm building I've been cutting 6x6 and 4x6 posts.

I made a toe board out of a scissor jack and some angle iron cross pieces. It works very well. Total cost was about $45. The one made by the sawmill company was about $160. Probably better made but maybe not 3x better made.

 

[Doughknob]

If I were making my own posts, I'd glue them (ply posts.) Warping is less an issue. Yes more work initially.

 

[s219]

Yeah, WM's toe board is nice but not that nice. I got a motorcycle lift/jack from Amazon for about $65 that does the same thing.

One thing I started doing recently is to strap my stacks of yellow pine, to help it behave while drying. About once a week I check and tighten the straps as the wood shrinks Time will tell if it really works. I have another few months of drying before I dig into that batch of wood and will be curious what the stack does when I take off the straps. I am probably going to wince as I loosen up the buckles...

 

[N80]

I wish there was a "saw milling" subforum on this site. It seems to make sense. There are a number of us here who have one, they are becoming very popular, and for me my tractor is an integral part of the process from skidding to loading the mill. I requested this a while back but got no reply.

 

[Jstpssng]

I wish there was a "saw milling" subforum on this site. It seems to make sense. There are a number of us here who have one, they are becoming very popular, and for me my tractor is an integral part of the process from skidding to loading the mill. I requested this a while back but got no reply.

There's always the Forestry Forum. They have a sawmill section already, and seem to be a pretty good site.
Even if they didn't accept my membership application.

 

[timbatrader]

My experience is in New Zealand with Radiatia pine here commercial mills cut 4x4's centered around the pith as that is the most profitable way to use was would otherwise be very low grade timber if the pith is close to centre the post doesn't move to much probably a bit of propeller twist but otherwise good the worst posable post will be one with corewood on one side and higher density sap wood the other side corewood shrinks at about twice the rate of sapwood and having different shrinkage rates in one stick of timber is what causes to pull out of shape when it dries