I just bought a new 53 inch tiller for my 28hp tractor to start a vegetable garden next year, probably about 100' x 100' to start. I am in northeast PA and although the ground was probably plowed until 30 years ago it is now just dense hay with a good amount of rocks. My location is close to the top of a hill so it never gets saturated but July/August will provide the dryest conditions. Is tilling dry soil better/easier than damp soil? I have a barn full of cow manure that is also probably 30 years old. Can I start working quantities of that into the soil now to provide a good base for spring planting? I read previous posts about things to check before starting and leaving the rear flap up, but I have no knowledge of whether tilting the tiller forward or rear tills deeper. Which does what? The owners manual says nothing. I was going to start by brush hogging close to the ground before a preliminary shallow till. Should I spread manure before a deeper second pass with more in the spring? Would there be any problems (or benefits) with leaving tilled ground over the winter and then retilling before spring planting? The ground is level so erosion is not a concern. Obviously I am new at this so any tips would be appreciated. Thanks.
Tiller Seeking advice best time to till
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RalphVa
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I don't till.
However, with all that old cow manure, you can till in the fall and work it in. Just spread it and then till.
I'd be inclined to use Roundup on the vegetation that's there first, before it goes to seed.
Ralph
However, with all that old cow manure, you can till in the fall and work it in. Just spread it and then till.
I'd be inclined to use Roundup on the vegetation that's there first, before it goes to seed.
Ralph
clemsonfor
Super Member
I would roundup or spray glyphosate now, then let it sit and once something resprouts in like 4-5 weeks spray again, then use a boxblade with rippers or something like a harrow to break the hard ground then till right after a light rain to get some moisture. You dont want saturated but you dont want to till power and cement hard dirt as that is the worst. You will be eating , breathing it as well your top soil will be blowing away.
Baby Grand
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I do the same thing with a subsoiler. I don't have a plow or I'd use that. You can make your own subsoiler or pick one up for not too much $$. Soil can get mighty thin on hilltops and you don't want to run your new tiller over much ledge. Your plan to brush hog close before tilling is what I do.
Others may suggest different, but here's what I would do: Spread the manure & till whenever conditions allow. I like to till soil that isn't wet, but isn't bone dry, either. The one time I tilled really dry soil I was blowing dust out of my nose for days. Till again in the fall. This should allow the seeds that passed thru the critters into the manure and the seeds in the soil in the field to germinate. One more till in the Spring before you plant and you should have a lot less weeding to do when your vegetables start growing. After that, you really shouldn't need to do a lot of tilling in that area again. Let the soil and microorganisms that make it fertile recover. RalphVa might have some insight for you on low till/no till options ...
-Jim
Don87
Elite Member
Just a middlebuster from TSC( Tractor Supply Company) works great for fresh ground. Also makes tilling easier.
Rocks and tillers just don't mix...I would go with the middle buster idea first or borrow/rent a scraper box with rippers on it, you can make several passes with the rippers down and get the rocks to surface, then wait for a good rain to expose the ones you missed.
Thanks for all of the advice. I am trying to stay away from adding any chemicals, including Roundup, to the soil, Otherwise, I can buy a lot of food for what I paid for the tiller, fuel, seat time, etc. I know that the manure is good because when I dug it in around some rhubarb, the plants took off like crazy. I will go with my initial plan and if I start raising too much dust or hit too much rock/hard soil will wait for some rain or try some of these tips. Thanks.
Farmwithjunk
Super Member
OK....Gonna toss out some thoughts on the subject. I have a degree in soil science. (working on a Masters) Here's a few things I've learned while in school and a few things I picked up after 40+ years of farming.
1st. There are no absolutes....No answer is always right....No answer is always wrong. It all depends on soil conditions, weather conditions, and a laundry list of variables, as to what is the "most correct" answers to your questions.
2nd. Tilling (ie OVER-tilling) in dry conditions might just be the WORST thing you can do. Dry soils tend to turn into talcum powder consistancy. A good rain, and you have highly compacted soils that resist further rains from penetrating, as well as no oxygen in the soil.
3rd. You might not have issues with water erosion, but I'd bet you get WIND if you're on high ground. Wind will carry away ALMOST as much soil as water/rain. Tilling in late fall, you'll have enough soil moisture to resist some wind erosion. Till in the summer, and your neighbor will be sweeping your soil off his back porch.
4th. Use ((over use) of chemicals (ESPECIALLY Glyphosate [RoundUp]) is one of the leading causes of todays "RoundUp resistant weeds" If you do use chemicals, practice LIMITED use, relying on mowing weeds in fallowed ground to prevent weeds from maturing to seed stage.
5th. If you do till, even in the fall, it's a good practice to establish a cover crop after working the soil, and until you go to use the ground (to plant a crop) On larger tracts of crop land, crop residue from previous crop often fills in for a cover crop as far as holding soils in place. Cover crops decay eventually, adding to the soil structure.
6th. Manure will help soils, but have some short term negative effects. While decaying, manure ties up nitrogen. Eventually, rotted manure will add to the nitrogen levels, but MOST of the time, you'll need to add lime to nuetralize the effects on soil ph levels. Be carefull of adding too much manure at one shot. Manure commonly has a LOT of weed seed in it too. (especially so with cow manure)
7th. My advice is to NOT take anyones advice too seriously, UNLESS they're "local". What works here in Kentucky might be the worst thing you can do at your location. Contact County Extention office/Soil & Water District office for more detailed, localized info. That's what those boys are there for. They'll be glad to help.
8th. Generally speaking, MOST advice you get on tillage will be deeply rooted in the "givers" equipment inventory....In other words, they'll usually suggest you use the same sort of equipment they're familiar with, and/or what they usually use. Starting from scratch, assembling a list of equipment, and building soils works best when you start with no pre-concieved notions, rather than what worked on someone elses farm 20 years ago....
9th. The single most important thing I can suggest is to START with a soil test. Not JUST NPK....Get a test of NPK, Ph, and micro-nutrients. Without a proper balance of micronutrients, NPK is tied up in the soil. No amount of fertility is of use if the plant can't access it. In the case of my soil on my farm, I'm having to balance zinc and boron levels. N was a tick low, P&K were actually abundant. My corn crop couldn't use what was there, so we kept piling on more and more expensive fertilizers. It wasn't until a test indicated the need for zinc and boron, then adding them to the soil, that I was able to realize the benifits of all the fertilizer I added. Again, get the county extention office involved.
10th. Have some idea what you'll be doing with this soil. Some crops need specific levels of specific nutrients. Some crops can actually be harmed by the levels that HELP others.
Now....Are you totally confused?
1st. There are no absolutes....No answer is always right....No answer is always wrong. It all depends on soil conditions, weather conditions, and a laundry list of variables, as to what is the "most correct" answers to your questions.
2nd. Tilling (ie OVER-tilling) in dry conditions might just be the WORST thing you can do. Dry soils tend to turn into talcum powder consistancy. A good rain, and you have highly compacted soils that resist further rains from penetrating, as well as no oxygen in the soil.
3rd. You might not have issues with water erosion, but I'd bet you get WIND if you're on high ground. Wind will carry away ALMOST as much soil as water/rain. Tilling in late fall, you'll have enough soil moisture to resist some wind erosion. Till in the summer, and your neighbor will be sweeping your soil off his back porch.
4th. Use ((over use) of chemicals (ESPECIALLY Glyphosate [RoundUp]) is one of the leading causes of todays "RoundUp resistant weeds" If you do use chemicals, practice LIMITED use, relying on mowing weeds in fallowed ground to prevent weeds from maturing to seed stage.
5th. If you do till, even in the fall, it's a good practice to establish a cover crop after working the soil, and until you go to use the ground (to plant a crop) On larger tracts of crop land, crop residue from previous crop often fills in for a cover crop as far as holding soils in place. Cover crops decay eventually, adding to the soil structure.
6th. Manure will help soils, but have some short term negative effects. While decaying, manure ties up nitrogen. Eventually, rotted manure will add to the nitrogen levels, but MOST of the time, you'll need to add lime to nuetralize the effects on soil ph levels. Be carefull of adding too much manure at one shot. Manure commonly has a LOT of weed seed in it too. (especially so with cow manure)
7th. My advice is to NOT take anyones advice too seriously, UNLESS they're "local". What works here in Kentucky might be the worst thing you can do at your location. Contact County Extention office/Soil & Water District office for more detailed, localized info. That's what those boys are there for. They'll be glad to help.
8th. Generally speaking, MOST advice you get on tillage will be deeply rooted in the "givers" equipment inventory....In other words, they'll usually suggest you use the same sort of equipment they're familiar with, and/or what they usually use. Starting from scratch, assembling a list of equipment, and building soils works best when you start with no pre-concieved notions, rather than what worked on someone elses farm 20 years ago....
9th. The single most important thing I can suggest is to START with a soil test. Not JUST NPK....Get a test of NPK, Ph, and micro-nutrients. Without a proper balance of micronutrients, NPK is tied up in the soil. No amount of fertility is of use if the plant can't access it. In the case of my soil on my farm, I'm having to balance zinc and boron levels. N was a tick low, P&K were actually abundant. My corn crop couldn't use what was there, so we kept piling on more and more expensive fertilizers. It wasn't until a test indicated the need for zinc and boron, then adding them to the soil, that I was able to realize the benifits of all the fertilizer I added. Again, get the county extention office involved.
10th. Have some idea what you'll be doing with this soil. Some crops need specific levels of specific nutrients. Some crops can actually be harmed by the levels that HELP others.
Now....Are you totally confused?
TDVT
Silver Member
We added a 30 X 100 plot to our garden this summer. It too was pasture, probably never cultivated & of course we have plenty of rocks here in Vermont.
I don't own a tiller, as we used mostly raised beds, but as we are expanding I don't see a better way to go until the plot is really established.
Initially, we did a soil test (Univ of VT Extension lab) to get an idea of what we needed to add once we were able to work the soil. The top soil (alot of clay) was only about 8"-10" deep with a hardpan layer below that. So I ran a box blade with the rippers down, several passes to cut as deep as I could & also to cut up all the sod. We are creating established rows so the tires always ran in the same tracks. Then the entire area was then tilled by a neighbor with a tractor tiller.
We then added ammendments (mostly lime as our pH was very low), added about 6" of compost to each row then mixed it in by hand & some with a small walk behind tiller. We bought 8 yards of compost in April from a local compost operation.
Since this is the very first season planting there, we are pleased with our results so far (potatoes & onions) but I can see that it will be a few years before the soil will be really good. We plan to add more compost, till & cover crop it this fall (glad to see we are pretty in line with FMJ's recommendations) & will soil test again next spring. We will probably till-in the cover crop next spring too but hope that we won't have to till again after that.
The biggest problem at the moment are all the grass clods that haven't broken down yet & are still trying to survive. It's manageable but we will try to clean alot of it out this fall, probably by hand.
In the end, I hope to be able to just run a few chisel shanks through it in spring to prep it for planting.
Not expert advice but it's what we are doing & seems to be working so far. Not having done this before I asked alot of different people about it & kind of came up with my own plan based on all the answers.
Good luck with it!
I don't own a tiller, as we used mostly raised beds, but as we are expanding I don't see a better way to go until the plot is really established.
Initially, we did a soil test (Univ of VT Extension lab) to get an idea of what we needed to add once we were able to work the soil. The top soil (alot of clay) was only about 8"-10" deep with a hardpan layer below that. So I ran a box blade with the rippers down, several passes to cut as deep as I could & also to cut up all the sod. We are creating established rows so the tires always ran in the same tracks. Then the entire area was then tilled by a neighbor with a tractor tiller.
We then added ammendments (mostly lime as our pH was very low), added about 6" of compost to each row then mixed it in by hand & some with a small walk behind tiller. We bought 8 yards of compost in April from a local compost operation.
Since this is the very first season planting there, we are pleased with our results so far (potatoes & onions) but I can see that it will be a few years before the soil will be really good. We plan to add more compost, till & cover crop it this fall (glad to see we are pretty in line with FMJ's recommendations) & will soil test again next spring. We will probably till-in the cover crop next spring too but hope that we won't have to till again after that.
The biggest problem at the moment are all the grass clods that haven't broken down yet & are still trying to survive. It's manageable but we will try to clean alot of it out this fall, probably by hand.
In the end, I hope to be able to just run a few chisel shanks through it in spring to prep it for planting.
Not expert advice but it's what we are doing & seems to be working so far. Not having done this before I asked alot of different people about it & kind of came up with my own plan based on all the answers.
Good luck with it!
