septic system soil sample

[Mosey]

I’m planning on building an addition (a total of about 400 sq ft). I am not adding any more bedrooms or bathrooms, but I was told by the building inspector that I will have to have my septic system inspected before any room addition permit would be authorized. I went to the health dept. and asked them what kind of inspection was needed (dig it up and look or what) and they said they would just test to make sure it works and take a soil sample for testing. I was told if the soil sample failed the test, then I would have to have the septic replaced (which around here these days, replaced means “put in a mound”). I told them that I couldn’t afford to replace it and would have to just forget the room inspection idea. They told me that once they determine it has failed the test I would have to replace the septic system regardless of whether I build the addition or not!

So, now I’m nervous about even applying for the permit. I’ve heard from a couple sources that the inspector in this county is a real jerk and will go out of his way to find problems. The septic system does work, but it’s over 20 years old and the ground around the end of it is fairly low, so I don’t know how well it’s draining off. It’s a finger system with 2 or 3 fingers (according to the previous owner). Is there any way I can get a soil sample tested privately to make sure I don’t have a problem first? I don’t plan on starting on this until this fall, so I’ve got all summer to figure out what to do. Would it do any good to get the tank pumped right away and then again just before they inspect it? I had it pumped once 3 years ago.

 

[StoneHeartFarm]

Mosey

Around here, "soil sample" means they take a tube about 3" in diameter that is attached to a long rod and dig a hole down about 5' or so. Basically, they look at the type of soil that comes up and the amount of water in it. It used to be that they did a "perk test", which means that they would dig a shallow hole, dump a bucket of water in it and count the seconds until it was absorbed. The only problem is, they found out that at certain times of year, everything will perk alright. At other times of the year, some of it will be under water.

I'm not sure about a private soil test. I would imagine its possible, but I don't know who would do it, other than perhaps a septic installer. From what I've seen around here, the test results appear to be primarily at the whim of the tester. The only other thing I could think of would be to wait until the dry season, so that the soil coming up will not be saturated.

SHF

 

[Golfgar4]

Danny,

In Wisconsin, we can have soil tests done by the University Extension offices in each county. I don't know if there is a charge for this service as I have never had the need to have one done. But if there is a charge, I would expect it to be minimal, plus it would be an unbiased evaluation you could use if you end up getting into a shouting match with your local inspector.

 

[dmccarty]

Mosey,

I feel your pain. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I had problems with my local health department as well. The
county finally fired the guy and they seem to have someone
who is competent to perform the job. But that does not help
you. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

In NC and VA there are professional "Soil Scientists" who can
do the work. I had my land perc by a Soil Scientist. I read up
on the rules for septic system that the state sets, watched my
Soil Scientist work and asked a bunch of questions. I KNEW
she knew what she was doing. The county bozo did not KNOW
squat about the type of dirt that is required so you can squat.

Start digging at your state's web sites. NC's rules for perc
sites are on the web. Something like 200-300 pages. They have
rules on the materials and sizes required for an outhouse! Buried
in the rules I found the process to follow to overrule the county.
Which is what I ended up having to do.

So start digging into what your state requires.

Find a Soil Scientist or whatever you state calls them. In NC
these people are like Engineers and have to pass educational
and test requirements. They pretty much have to have a Masters
in a "dirt" related field such as Geology. The county guy had no
educational or professional training in any of this from what I could
tell. But he was the one that had to APPROVE the permits even
though the Soil Scientist had more educational and professional
credentials.

The phone book might help to find engineers as well.

The Soil Scientist can come out and look at your dirt. Mine
had a book of soil colors that she compared my soil. They
also feel the soil to see if it has clay, sand, does it ribbon,
etc. The state's rules specified all of this stuff. The type
of soil also appears to be a standard setup by the Engineers.
The Soil Scientist can tell you what you have and give you
and idea of what the county will/can do. In NC they work
with the county so they know what kind of problems you
might have. IF you had to build a new septic system there
is the Septic Engineer to do the work. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Find out if your state has "Soil Scientists" and the
states regs/rules. I think my Soil Scientist was
charging something like $75 per hour. I would not
think it would take more than an hour or two worth
of work for what you described. Once you know what
the state requires and if the state can overrule the
county you can get the information from the Soil
Scientist to figure out if you can build...

Hope this is not to rambling but I'm typing a bit
here and there while working. Sorry. If you have
more questions don't hesitate to ask. I fought like
heck with my local guy and this sort of attitude ticks
me off. I know my county guy really messed up lots
of people trying to buy and sell land. Many a dream
was ruined not to mention thousands of dollars lost....

Hope this helps...
Dan

 

[Mosey]

I talked to the county health department to schedule the inspection. They said they don’t need to do a soil sample if I’m not adding more bedrooms. They said all they need to do is verify that the septic system is working by going in the house and running water and flushing the toilets and looking in the yard for sewage seeping out of the ground. The other thing they need to do is make sure I'm not going to build on top of it, so they'll prod the ground to verify where it is. I told them it was built over 20 years ago and I asked them if they found out it was not up to today's code if they would make me upgrade it and they said no as long as I’m not adding more bedrooms, which I’m not, I’m just building bigger bedrooms and will use the other ones for a den and a storage room So, I giong to schedule for them to come out pretty soon. I’m still nervous and will be glad when this is over!

 

[rneidick]

Mosey,

I feel your pain. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I had problems with my local health department as well. The
county finally fired the guy and they seem to have someone
who is competent to perform the job. But that does not help
you. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

In NC and VA there are professional "Soil Scientists" who can
do the work. I had my land perc by a Soil Scientist. I read up
on the rules for septic system that the state sets, watched my
Soil Scientist work and asked a bunch of questions. I KNEW
she knew what she was doing. The county bozo did not KNOW
squat about the type of dirt that is required so you can squat.

Start digging at your state's web sites. NC's rules for perc
sites are on the web. Something like 200-300 pages. They have
rules on the materials and sizes required for an outhouse! Buried
in the rules I found the process to follow to overrule the county.
Which is what I ended up having to do.

So start digging into what your state requires.

Find a Soil Scientist or whatever you state calls them. In NC
these people are like Engineers and have to pass educational
and test requirements. They pretty much have to have a Masters
in a "dirt" related field such as Geology. The county guy had no
educational or professional training in any of this from what I could
tell. But he was the one that had to APPROVE the permits even
though the Soil Scientist had more educational and professional
credentials.

The phone book might help to find engineers as well.

The Soil Scientist can come out and look at your dirt. Mine
had a book of soil colors that she compared my soil. They
also feel the soil to see if it has clay, sand, does it ribbon,
etc. The state's rules specified all of this stuff. The type
of soil also appears to be a standard setup by the Engineers.
The Soil Scientist can tell you what you have and give you
and idea of what the county will/can do. In NC they work
with the county so they know what kind of problems you
might have. IF you had to build a new septic system there
is the Septic Engineer to do the work. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Find out if your state has "Soil Scientists" and the
states regs/rules. I think my Soil Scientist was
charging something like $75 per hour. I would not
think it would take more than an hour or two worth
of work for what you described. Once you know what
the state requires and if the state can overrule the
county you can get the information from the Soil
Scientist to figure out if you can build...

Hope this is not to rambling but I'm typing a bit
here and there while working. Sorry. If you have
more questions don't hesitate to ask. I fought like
heck with my local guy and this sort of attitude ticks
me off. I know my county guy really messed up lots
of people trying to buy and sell land. Many a dream
was ruined not to mention thousands of dollars lost....

Hope this helps...
Dan

I know this is a real old forum but I live in NC and am having a similar problem. My county is not approving my building permit cause they say my septic system may be failing. I have to have a plumber look at it and they will be out to do a soil sample. I would possibly like to see that rules and regulations you are talking about. Can you tell me the site you used. Thank you

 

[Terrydt100]

Dig a 18 inch deep hole with a post hole digger fill it with water let sit overnight make a mark on the hole 4 inches from the bottom of the hole add water to the mark wait one hour measure how much the water has dropped . 4 inch drop is fantastic no drop is very bad . This is the way it use to be done in oklahoma when I was testing for septic systems.

 

[flusher]

When I had the septic system installed for my new house 10 years ago, the contractor and the county health dept inspector showed up with a backhoe. They dug a trench about 10 ft long and 6 ft deep. First attempt--too much clay. Second attempt at different location--same result. The foreman suggested a third location. The second time the bucket went into the ground I could hear the gravel in the soil scraping the bucket--perfect gravely loam. The inspector gave it his blessing. He asked how many bedrooms. Three. He says 100 ft of leach line buried 3-ft deep with drain rock 2 ft below the pipe and 1 ft above, a layer of drain field fabric to keep the dirt out of the drain rock, and dirt backfill.

 

[dmccarty]

I know this is a real old forum but I live in NC and am having a similar problem. My county is not approving my building permit cause they say my septic system may be failing. I have to have a plumber look at it and they will be out to do a soil sample. I would possibly like to see that rules and regulations you are talking about. Can you tell me the site you used. Thank you

The plumber can't really decide the quality of the soil. He might have an opinion but unless he is a Soil Scientist not sure if it is really relevant on the other hand, sometimes the plumber/septic system installed can just get things done. Somehow. When I was getting my permits, they did not dig test holes and fill with water, they dug holes and looked at the dirt. The report the Soil Scientist gave me contained a three dimensional map of the soil in my area.

The document is "Laws and Rules for Sewage Treatment, and Disposal Systems 15A NCAC 18A.1900" published by the NCDENR(NC Department of Environment and Natural Resources. My copy is OLD, and based on rules from 1/1/1999. These regulations seemed to be state statutes so they would also be shown at the NC General Assembly website that publishes laws.

The NC Extension office has information on septic systems that could be helpful. Your county Extension office should be able to answer questions or at least point you to other people. I have found the county Extension people very helpful.

I got curious and Googled with "Laws and Rules for Sewage Treatment, and Disposal Systems" and found my old document as well as a link to the current statute the document would be based on, http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CC0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fehs.ncpublichealth.com%2Foswp%2Fdocs%2Frules%2FAugust-2007.pdf&ei=83o1U_KfCou0sQSP0YCYCA&usg=AFQjCNG6tYWR7iW9X89rj4jBft6UdCXoSA&sig2=WSvWhf-IujerOxg9rTUIcg&bvm=bv.63808443,d.cWc

Going to the NCDENR website, NCDENR - NC Dept. of Environment and Natural Resources, and searching on "sewage" generated quite a few hits. The document I have mentions that the rules were from the On-Site wastewater section which might still be the case 15 years later.

Hope this helps,
Dan

 

[therealmjfox]

I'm also in NC and have poorly perking soil, which required an LPP system. I had it designed by these guys: February Associates Inc. | water protection for the 21st century. They have all the expertise, engineering, soil scientists, etc. In my experience (mine was in 1999, about the same time Dan was having his problem) the county health department has a hard time turning down an application that comes with engineer stamped drawings. I think the cost was a couple of hundred dollars, money well spent because my permit sailed through.