Size engine to pump

   / Size engine to pump #1  

jaquetarr

Silver Member
Joined
May 17, 2009
Messages
158
Location
Kerrville TX
Tractor
PoiwerTrac 2445
I want to upgrade the hydraulics on a 2 cu yd concrete mixer I have.
It currently has a 24 hp engine driving ? pump and ? motor (the ? parts are painted over)

I want to upgrade to a 35 hp B&S Vanguard engine. I want to upgrade because the mixer stalls under certain conditions and, like Tim Allen, I figure 'More HorsePower". From my calculations I figure I could drive a 17 gpm, 3000 psi pump.

If this is correct I then have to find a motor to go with this pump.

I have not found a good guide on line so I turn to the experts here.
Advise most appreciated.
Rgds,
tim
 
   / Size engine to pump #2  
Hi Tim
More power is "always" better.
Link to hydraulic calculator:
Hydraulic

@ 17 GPM and 3000 PSI you'll need 34.93150684931507 horse power :)

Larry
 
   / Size engine to pump #4  
jaquetarr ,

Maybe your pump is weak and bypassing. Have you checked the pressure in the system?

A 5 cu in hyd motor, using 17 GPM's, will turn at 785 rpm. The torque at 3000 psi will be 2389 in lbs. You could go with a smaller displacement motor, but would have to reduce the speed using chain/pulleys or whatever.

The larger the displacement on the hyd motor, the slower the motor will run.

This hyd motor would match up with pumps maximum capacity.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009112005574475&item=9-7078-80&catname=hydraulic

This is a flow control valve to regulate speed.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009112005574475&item=9-4169-10&catname=hydraulic
 
   / Size engine to pump
  • Thread Starter
#5  
Thanks for the reference calculator links and additional info. Still working on the plans, I'll post picts of the machine when the sun comes out
Rgds,
tim
 
   / Size engine to pump #6  
Maybe we should ask for a more complete input data about the mixer:

What is desired mixer bowl rpm's? 6-15 per minute??
Is there a gear unit on the mixer?
What is the current gear ratio between input power rpm (hydraulic motor) and mixer bowl rpm?

What is the "good" rpm range(decent torque) for this new B&S Vanguard engine? 1800-3000rpm?

Now when we know this, we can start designing a good pump/motor combination.

Rating on pumps and motors might be based on displacement only, and not concidering in-efficiancy at max pressure.
Calculate about 80-85% volumetric efficiancy, at max pressure, on gear or gerotor pumps and motors. 80% by 80% is 64%. That is 36% losses
To compensate for those losses at high pressure, we need to have some extra engine rpm available.

I would design pump/motor for a lower rpm, and as pump/motor wears over the years we can compensate with rpm's.

Priority (flow control) valves are good, but they will waist a lot of energy if they dump excess flow to tank. It is better to use them where you you the excessive flow for other hydraaulic functions.
 
   / Size engine to pump
  • Thread Starter
#7  
The mixer is a Port-A-Mix 2 cuyd paddle mixer designed for mixing concrete. I liked it because of the heavy construction, conveyor and trailer.

I am using it to mix clay / sand / lime / cement to make compressed earth bricks. The mixture is relatively dry about 10-12% moisture; or a hand full of soil will ball and leave a small cone shape when dropped. The mixer is 8 long tank X 30 dia. The paddles run along the centerline with the motor on one end. The shaft is supported at each end with roller bearings.

There are a couple of problems I am having since I致e redirected the purpose of the machine. (Not in Order) 1) the mixer paddles are about 25-30 deg off the centerline. This presents too broad a surface to the mix and the mixer must push the soil instead of cutting thru it. I致e stalled the unit and ripped the paddles off the arms several times due to the force. With the clay the soil tends to pack and not flow around the paddle. 2) the RPM is too low. An increased RPM will tend to fluff the soil, kick up and break any existing clods. 3) when the lime / cement is added, the mix gets too dry so water must be added. This causes clumping, hence problem #2. 4) I need to redesign the paddles with a 75 deg angle off the centerline to permit the blades to slice thru the mix rather than displace it. A ribbon, double helix style blade seems to be the preferred style for other soil mixer on the market.

I think an increase in HP would help the redesigned paddles cut thru the soil and the increase in RPM would help agitate and mix the soil. I think a larger displacement motor with a lower speed and higher torque might help with the stalling.

Q >>What is desired mixer bowl rpm's? 6-15 per minute??
The current RPM is 12-15. I plan to increase to 80-90 RPM with more pitch to the blades to reduce resistance.
Q >>Is there a gear unit on the mixer?
Q >>What is the current gear ratio between input power rpm (hydraulic motor) and mixer bowl rpm?
Yes, the current motor is geared down. The ration is unknown, but the reducer appears to be a planetary type gear.
Q >> What is the "good" rpm range (decent torque) for this new B&S Vanguard engine? 1800-3000rpm?
B&S is real tight with the torque curves for this engine and do not post them on the Vanguard site. By shear tenacity I致e found that 2500 RPM seems to be the top of the curve.
Q >> It is better to use them where you use the excessive flow for other hydraulic functions.
The hydraulics also run a 10 conveyor and lift cylinders for the mixer.

I believe I致e addressed your questions. With the pics you might get a better idea of what I知 working with.
In the first you can see the motor, side of the tank, lift cylinders and in the back the conveyor.
In the second you see the current Engine pump
In the third you see the layout of the hydraulics.
 

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   / Size engine to pump #8  
if your going to buy a 35HP B & S gas engine, i'd look into a smaller diesel engine as well. we have several of those large B & S engines at work on straw blowers, and they are nothing but problems. They are NOT a heavy duty engine, and tend to run awfully hot. Surplus center sells a range of smaller diesel engines.
 

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