Small diesels - how much maintenance?
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newred
Bronze Member
I`d say in Florida ether has no place . go to more northern states or up here in Canada and you will find common use of ether . heard a bang ? don`t use ether on anything with glow plugs or don`t use glow plugs if its very cold out and just use ether. Also ether works much better to spray a little in as engine is spinning as opposed to spraying then starting , so its better to have helper.
JerryG
Super Member
As far as I know, you can still get an injection kit on Cummin and Cats.
JerryG
Super Member
John,
It's apparent that you haven't been around equipment very much.
It's apparent that you haven't been around equipment very much.
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( John,
It's apparent that you haven't been around equipment very much. )</font>
And it's obvious that you made your post, and then decided to become obstreperous once again.
I haven't been around nearly the diesel equipment that some others have, but I've been around ruined diesels that were abused by ether nuts.
As far as you know, you can still get injection kits. You got any links? I'd like to read about them. All the diesel mechanics I've ever spoken to about this say ether is deadly for a diesel. I guess they haven't been around much diesel equipment either.
I was raised on gas engines, there are a lot of other things I haven't been around much either but it doesn't mean that I haven't asked questions of those in the know. I prefer to go by what someone who knows what he/she works on when it comes to experience.
John
It's apparent that you haven't been around equipment very much. )</font>
And it's obvious that you made your post, and then decided to become obstreperous once again.
I haven't been around nearly the diesel equipment that some others have, but I've been around ruined diesels that were abused by ether nuts.
As far as you know, you can still get injection kits. You got any links? I'd like to read about them. All the diesel mechanics I've ever spoken to about this say ether is deadly for a diesel. I guess they haven't been around much diesel equipment either.
I was raised on gas engines, there are a lot of other things I haven't been around much either but it doesn't mean that I haven't asked questions of those in the know. I prefer to go by what someone who knows what he/she works on when it comes to experience.
John
Egon
Epic Contributor
Do not use either on diesel enginges that have air preheaters.
Egon
Egon
JerryG
Super Member
John,
Take it off here to PM.
Take it off here to PM.
Dargo
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A very good friend of mine's father has been a diesel mechanic for over 45 years. He was the head diesel mechanic at a large JD dealership that also sold Ford/CNH for many years. He has worked on single cylinder diesel engines that are 8 to 10 hp, and he has done most all of the work on a Cummins QTA38-C engine. The big Cummins engine is a 1200 hp engine that puts out 3450 ft. lbs. of torque. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif It is used in several haul trucks, water trucks, and loaders in the coal mine by here in Cannelton, IN as well as thousands of other mines. You can look that up, it is one of the test places for some of the bigger engines from Cummins.
Anyway, he has taken apart more diesel engines than I've probably seen, and I've always lived in a rural farming area. He told me to never use either in a diesel unless the engine was pretty well "shot", and the alternative was not being able to use the engine at all. Apparently the "right" amount of either will really help start a diesel engine, but you can't apply the "right" amount very easily with a spray can. He said that people almost always hit the intake with way too much and it is just a matter of time before it causes the "magic smoke" to come out of the engine. You know what magic smoke is; it is the smoke that can only be installed by the factory. Once it leaves the engine, it can never be put back in, and the engine is toast. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
In general, small diesels require very little maintenance. I have a 2 cyl. Onan diesel generator that was set up to a 5000 gallon diesel tank and ran flood lights at a coal mine. It was generally running all of the time except once a week or so when it was shut off to have the air filter cleaned/replaced, and the oil level checked. This generator was in service there for 5 years. Do the math on how many hours it has on it. Even if you take all sorts of things into consideration for down time, the thing has to have 30k hours on it. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif It still starts fine; after holding the air pre-heat grid button for the required 60 seconds. It has had little maintenance and still runs fine. I doubt any gas engine could claim that.
Anyway, he has taken apart more diesel engines than I've probably seen, and I've always lived in a rural farming area. He told me to never use either in a diesel unless the engine was pretty well "shot", and the alternative was not being able to use the engine at all. Apparently the "right" amount of either will really help start a diesel engine, but you can't apply the "right" amount very easily with a spray can. He said that people almost always hit the intake with way too much and it is just a matter of time before it causes the "magic smoke" to come out of the engine. You know what magic smoke is; it is the smoke that can only be installed by the factory. Once it leaves the engine, it can never be put back in, and the engine is toast. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
In general, small diesels require very little maintenance. I have a 2 cyl. Onan diesel generator that was set up to a 5000 gallon diesel tank and ran flood lights at a coal mine. It was generally running all of the time except once a week or so when it was shut off to have the air filter cleaned/replaced, and the oil level checked. This generator was in service there for 5 years. Do the math on how many hours it has on it. Even if you take all sorts of things into consideration for down time, the thing has to have 30k hours on it. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif It still starts fine; after holding the air pre-heat grid button for the required 60 seconds. It has had little maintenance and still runs fine. I doubt any gas engine could claim that.
Dargo
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Do not use either on diesel enginges that have air preheaters. Egon )</font>
Egon, you beat me. I'd mentioned an Onan diesel generator I have with an air pre-heater in the post I just put up. I'd forgotten to mention that the air pre-heater is one thing that can get you killed using either. Usually if someone can't get a diesel engine started, they have gone through the normal procedure of trying to start the engine. The diesel engine air pre-heater is an electrical grid that works as a heater. If that didn't work to start the engine, it will remain hot, really hot, for many minutes after use. Spraying either on that will cause a nice bang as the either hits the hot elements. If you are still holding the can of either when it ignites and runs back to the source of fuel; the can you are holding, there will be trouble. Not only because of the can possibly exploding in your hand, but also the intake exploding on the diesel engine from the pre-heater igniting the either on contact. Either way, a very bad senario. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Egon, you beat me. I'd mentioned an Onan diesel generator I have with an air pre-heater in the post I just put up. I'd forgotten to mention that the air pre-heater is one thing that can get you killed using either. Usually if someone can't get a diesel engine started, they have gone through the normal procedure of trying to start the engine. The diesel engine air pre-heater is an electrical grid that works as a heater. If that didn't work to start the engine, it will remain hot, really hot, for many minutes after use. Spraying either on that will cause a nice bang as the either hits the hot elements. If you are still holding the can of either when it ignites and runs back to the source of fuel; the can you are holding, there will be trouble. Not only because of the can possibly exploding in your hand, but also the intake exploding on the diesel engine from the pre-heater igniting the either on contact. Either way, a very bad senario. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Egon
Epic Contributor
Dargo:
Many years ago a friend of mine was killed [ burned to death ] when pouring gas into the carburator on a gas engine while trying to start it when it backfired.
The fellow definetly knew better too.
Egon
Many years ago a friend of mine was killed [ burned to death ] when pouring gas into the carburator on a gas engine while trying to start it when it backfired.
The fellow definetly knew better too.
Egon
JerryG
Super Member
One thing that some people never learn is how to do things in moderation. Either is one of the things that MUST be done in moderation. Just a little to much and that small amount is really WAY to much. Of course, there are defiantly some engines that you CAN'T use either on at all, such as engines with glow plug and preheaters.
JerryG
Super Member
Here are a few places that show ether injection on new diesels. One is on a 50/60 class 8 Detriot Diesel, one is on heavy equipment with a Cummins and the middle one is a place that sells ether injectors.
Detroit Diesel 50/60 series engines
Page 6 DDEC-controlled automatic ether starts to –30º F Detriot Diesel
Here is one place where you can buy a ether injection system for a diesel. Quickstart
Here is a heavy equipment Cummins that has ether injection. Hitachi
Detroit Diesel 50/60 series engines
Page 6 DDEC-controlled automatic ether starts to –30º F Detriot Diesel
Here is one place where you can buy a ether injection system for a diesel. Quickstart
Here is a heavy equipment Cummins that has ether injection. Hitachi
Dargo
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Jerry, I hope you don't think I was saying that you are wrong. I was only wanting to tell that most people seem to have that ole' theory that "if a little is good; then a more will be better." /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif That seems to be the issue with the people I know who have used ether with bad results. Sorry if I came across differently.
JerryG
Super Member
Dargo,
Not at all. Many people have used it and shouldn't have, that is one of the reasons some have went to hot grid intake heaters. It's real hard to blow up a engine with a grid heater, even if you use to much. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Not at all. Many people have used it and shouldn't have, that is one of the reasons some have went to hot grid intake heaters. It's real hard to blow up a engine with a grid heater, even if you use to much. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
crashz
Elite Member
I know I'm just a newbie here, but I have a lot of experience with diesels. My father owns and operates an excavating company, so I grew up running and repairing diesels. Even rebuilt a few Macks (237s and a 300 that continues to give us cam trouble) and a IH466.
What I can tell you is that older diesels will start fine with ether. But it has to be applied in moderation. Only enough to start the engine. If the engine revs on ether, a few things can happen: 1) It can run at high rpm with virtually no oil pressure (ie bearing damage) 2) It can easily over rev and tear itself apart. 3) The rings can seize to the sleeves or block due to lack of lube (usually in combination with a staved fuel condition like plugged filters). Worst part is that you don't know if you've given it to much ether until you here it catch and start. If it catches and sounds normal (revs to the throttle control) then no damage has occurred. If it catches and screams beyond any RPM you've seen or heard, call a priest for the last rights. You've just killed it. And the difference between the two is like an extra second or two burst of ether from the can. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Also, as mentioned before, never start a diesel with ether when it has an active start aid like glow plugs or grid heaters. Disastrous results will occur.
With all the doom and gloom out of the way, a positive is that we've been starting our older diesels (without glow plugs or grids) for years and years without damage. Some of the old Macks have run every day, started by ether, and have hundreds of thousands of miles, and still run great.
What I can tell you is that older diesels will start fine with ether. But it has to be applied in moderation. Only enough to start the engine. If the engine revs on ether, a few things can happen: 1) It can run at high rpm with virtually no oil pressure (ie bearing damage) 2) It can easily over rev and tear itself apart. 3) The rings can seize to the sleeves or block due to lack of lube (usually in combination with a staved fuel condition like plugged filters). Worst part is that you don't know if you've given it to much ether until you here it catch and start. If it catches and sounds normal (revs to the throttle control) then no damage has occurred. If it catches and screams beyond any RPM you've seen or heard, call a priest for the last rights. You've just killed it. And the difference between the two is like an extra second or two burst of ether from the can. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Also, as mentioned before, never start a diesel with ether when it has an active start aid like glow plugs or grid heaters. Disastrous results will occur.
With all the doom and gloom out of the way, a positive is that we've been starting our older diesels (without glow plugs or grids) for years and years without damage. Some of the old Macks have run every day, started by ether, and have hundreds of thousands of miles, and still run great.
JerryG
Super Member
CrashZ,
Everything you said is exactly right.
Everything you said is exactly right.
Bird
Rest in Peace
Leo, I think that's as good an explanation as I've seen; good post.
