Spray foam - questions

ITHINKICAN · Jan 10, 2011

I will be shopping for spray foam insulation in the near future - can anyone tell me the difference between open cell and closed cell. We met someone who put open cell in his building (forget if he said ceiling or walls) & put closed cell in his building too (forget if he said ceiling or wall).

I'd also like to know if spray foam will close up holes and "waterproof" a metal building from leaks. The building has six screw hole (openings) in the ceiling, three screw hole (openings) in the walls, lots of daylight openings along the eaves, lots of daylight openings along the base trim and for some reason the door trim was connected to the door frame before the PBR panels and now the PBR panels are loose and don't touch the trim or door frame at all (you can fit your fingers in the opening)... would spray foam "waterproof" the building from rain directed by wind (I'm not talking about "waterproof" from a flood - just rain).

I guess it couldn't hurt to ask - is it normal for a new metal building to have daylight at the eaves and along the base trim? Are there any other options to fix screw hole opening mistakes? Is there a best way to seal the PBR panel at the location where it meets a door frame and the door trim - the bolts that hold the door trim are forcing the PBR panels to be non flush with the door frame.

Thank you!

Willl · Jan 11, 2011

FOAM-TECH: Urethane Foam - Open Cell vs. Closed Cell

inveresk · Jan 11, 2011

Closed cell acts as a vapor barrier. Drywall over it - no polythene. Not so with open cell where you still have to add a vapour barrier. In addition, the closed cell acts as an air barrier. I.e.if you spray between rafters in a vaulted ceiling, you don't need to ventilate at eaves or ridge.

The insulation is not a waterproofing agent. I'd get the leaks fixed.

ITHINKICAN · Jan 11, 2011

Thank you for the replies. It looks like we have an uphill battle ahead of us. I don't think they are competent enough to fix the leaks. It appears the General Contractor "Sub Contracted" it out to a crew. The GC came for the initial check when they poured the concrete - we have been there every day of construction - we haven't seen him since that payment. It appears he came one day to pick up some materials but he did not supervise any of the construction - zero - zilch - none. To make matters more of a challenge - we asked the Sub Contractor about some issues - rather than say he would fix it - he said he would have to ask the guys who he hired to do it - in other words - "Double Sub'd".

Here is what the Building Company brags about:
Extended life self drilling fasteners
Formed base trim to eliminate rust
Die formed ridge caps for tighter roof seals
Cover trim at framed openings
Weather proofing closure strips
Purlin Bearing Rib Roof Panels

Meanwhile
Formed base trim to eliminate rust - not installed
Die formed ridge caps for tighter roof seals - they leak
Cover trim at framed openings - they were installed incorrectly
Weather proofing closure strips - we had to make them loosen walls because they forgot - they are still incorrect

radioman · Jan 11, 2011

wow, looks like you got a fight on your hands. Did you keep the 10 percent of payment till he fixes it? do you have the written brochure and invoice? If yes to these questions, its time to contact a lawyer if a phone call to the general contractor and no resolution within couple weeks. I'd go and file a case in small claims court since its very likely the contractor will file a lien on you.

ITHINKICAN · Jan 11, 2011

radioman said:
wow, looks like you got a fight on your hands. Did you keep the 10 percent of payment till he fixes it? do you have the written brochure and invoice? If yes to these questions, its time to contact a lawyer if a phone call to the general contractor and no resolution within couple weeks. I'd go and file a case in small claims court since its very likely the contractor will file a lien on you.

The building was pre-engineered and came with stamped blue prints and a letter of certification - pretty much fool proof. The list shown on the previous post is posted on the Metal Building website. The Metal Building company recommended this Erection Company to do the install - said they were extremely competent, very reputable and the best option - they wrote it on several emails and said it verbally many times. The Erection Company that did the install claims they've built several buildings for this Metal Building company - they claim they have several going up at a time and have several more scheduled for January/February and in the Spring. The Owner requested the building be delivered on Friday 12/31/10 - it arrived a day early. Not sure why he went to Dallas 12/30/10 until 1/2/11. I'd like to believe the Building would have been built correctly if the GC was present during the process. I believe this was the turning point - him not being there for the installation.

A few guys from the County were out yesterday - I told them the facts - they say it sounds like the job was sub'd out - I hope that isn't what happened. The guys are 'good ole boys' they just stood there shaking their heads at all the issues... they were very informative... it was very embarrassing.

I'm gonna ask him if he has a 2nd crew that might be able to troubleshoot the issues and pay closer attention to detail. Unfortunately the formed base trim is impossible to install this late in the game.

I've had incredible success with many other projects during the last 15+ years... maybe I've just been lucky until now... It's not about the money or hiring a Lawyer - we just want our building built correctly (or in this case 'completed/repaired correctly') so we can build out the interior and then enjoy ourselves on our property.

I'm optimistic that all the issues will get resolved.

Chuck K. · Jan 27, 2011

Hate to hear you had so many problems seems getting a reputable outfit to put up one of these buildings is hard to do. I had my share of issues as well fixed most of them myself.

The guy putting up my building "informed" me that spray foam was the way to go and would "only cost about 10% more" then convetional insulation.. Dont know where he go his information it was more like 100% more. I got some bids and had the whole thing sprayed with closed cell. There is some information about fire hazards of spray foam if you dont cover it with sheetrock, plywood etc. I ran so far overbudget it will have to wait awhile just really carefully when welding/cutting etc..

The additional stregth it add to the building made it worth while beings that I live in Galveston county and have to deal with the occasional hurricane. I even went as far as to build an office/storm shelter.

Good luck

EddieWalker · Jan 27, 2011

To seal your holes, use metal flashing sealant. It's like super sticky caulking. My personal favorite it Henry brand sold at Home Depot. It's misserable stuff to work with, but its also very good.

Spray foam is great if protected from the elements, but it breaks down if exposed. It might stop the leak from a small hole, but it will more then likely let water in and hold it in the foam. The water will slowly break down the foam and start rusting the metal.

The big advantage to the spray foam is that it totaly eliminates condensation. It's has a very high R value and is extremly good and deadening sound. For a metal roof, there is nothing better. There is also nothing more expensive.

First thing you need to do about your problems with your building is to document everything. When they showed up, who showed up, how long they worked. Keep every scrap of paper and take TONS of pictures. Then you need to become the squeeky wheel. Call the company that you bought it from and get names. Every person that you talk to, find out there name first. Write it down and make sure you have them spell it to you so you get it right. Document the date and time of your conversation. Explain the problem. Be polite. Tell them what you want done to resolve it. DO NOT threaten them in any way, or tell them what you may do if it's not resovled. That can come later. NEVER do it right away.

Good luck
Eddie

Johno Geo · Jan 27, 2011

I always check the references of a Contractor before I sign them up. I have them walk me through the process, so at least I know they can "Talk the Talk". It is not fool proof but better than nothing.
I used "Cleary Building Company.Wanatah, IN. They are based in WI. and do work all over the Midwest.I met them at a Builders show and I was impressed how they told me how well made their building were constructed (before they talked price). the only minor disppointment is that they mobilized with skid loaders (wheel) and could not get to the area where I wanted the building til late summer, Four months after I contracted with them. We were getting close to the Building Permit expiration date. If they had a track machines, it would have been a no brainer.
I am also investigating Foam insulation, as the condensation falls from the roof like rain! I am about to put in electrical, and a slab, this summber.
Good luck with your building!