Subdivision snow removal machine?

[stlbill]

Hello,

I am a member of a new board for a subdivision responsible for clearing snow and ice from a little over 2 miles of streets. In soliciting bids for snow removal we can't ignore the possibility of purchasing a machine to do it ourselves. There are unique challenges to this approach beginning with who will drive the machine, where to store it and managing off-season property owner use. I'll address each in that order:

(NOTE: This thread is as much of a thinking out-loud exercise as it is a request for input)

1. From about 50 potentials, I don't think it will be that difficult to get someone to volunteer for "seat time" if we acquire a dependable cab machine. In the neighborhood are several business owners who can set their own hours. Some work for government offices that close on the forecast of snow or ice. Still others have an option to work from home several days a week, especially in inclement weather.

2. There are a couple of acres of common ground most of which is consumed by a lake, but there is room for a "maintenance shed". Vandalism could be a problem and there is currently no electric to the site. Several property owners would volunteer to keep the machine on their land, but we would have to avoid the appearance of the land owner getting preferential access to the machine. Especially in exchange for storage rent.

3. The plan for off-season use is to designate it for common ground use only and rent it to the property owners who effectively own it - should they want to use it on their own land. Must talk to a couple of lawyers to make sure this is enforceable. The rental rate would go to insurance and upkeep of the machine and would be set below market rate. At a minimum it would save the property owner seeking such a machine the cost of pickup and delivery which I put as high as $500 round trip.

One more thing:

A. All operators would need to be "checked out" by an already current operator. This would probably mean most or all of the current board members would receive training from the dealership we purchase the machine from. The board members would convey operating knowledge in advance to any other property owner seeking to run the machine.

B. We prefer a tractor or skid steer machine because the licensure and tax burden is significantly less. I also believe the maintenance costs of using a pickup truck over a 10-20 year period are much higher.

C. Implements are to be discussed, but I would suggest the widest plow possible, a nice spreader for ice melt. We will also need some way to rid the machine of "ice melt debris" to reduce corrosion on the rear of the machine. I am thinking this could be as simple as a water pump - using water from the common ground lake - and a forced air heater to keep it from subsequently freezing while parked.

What do you guys think? Crazy or doable? I've heard of some rural property owners associations who do exactly this, but I have not yet spoke with any personally. Thanks in advance!

 

[mikehaugen]

Instead of a committee, perhaps designate one person to be responsible for this. Sort of a "road commissioner" that would get paid a small amount, or perhaps even a volunteer, and in the case of multiple volunteers- some sort of election. This person could also be the operator for homeowners wanting small jobs done during the off-season and you could charge them a modest fee for such work... even plowing their driveway (after the main roads are clearer). I can't pinpoint anything exactly, but the plan of having multiple people randomly volunteering and borrowing/renting/storing the unit sounds like an invitation for trouble.

About the washing the salt off, I would not want to do it in a fixed location since you will have a very high concentration of salt in that area. Although, I assume the "lake" you are referring to is a retention pond, which would get all of the wash off the road anyway, so maybe it isn't a big deal.

Overall though, unless you are collecting very high HOA fees, purchasing and maintaining a piece of equipment for a subdivision with only 2 miles of road doesn't seem financially plausible- it just doesn't seem like a very big neighborhood and you may be better hiring it out. Better yet, maybe someone in the subdivision would be willing to undertake owning/operating the machine and you could work out a contract with him in which you both benefit (#1-cheaper rates for you #2-he gets to work close to home, wouldn't pay the HOA fee, and he would benefit from clean roads so would be incentive to do a good job.)

 

[dave1949]

I would hire it out. Two miles of streets is on the small side to go at yourselves. We have a small army of plow contractors around here, maybe not in your area.

You may be able to entice someone with a three year contract, with non-performance provisions of course, which gets you a better rate and gives your members a reasonably hard budget number for that period. The person you contract knows they have a three year income stream to balance against their equipment costs.

Equipment that is shared by many will suffer IMO. If you do it yourselves, I would set it up with one person with an alternate backup person. Choose the right person and empower them with a budget and authority, so they aren't running to a committee every time they turn around.

 

[Dr_Zinj]

Multiple users of a communally owned tractor is a BAD idea.
You get about twice as much wear and tear on a tractor that way and almost never have a safely operational piece of equipment when you actually need it.

 

[mikehaugen]

Multiple users of a communally owned tractor is a BAD idea.
You get about twice as much wear and tear on a tractor that way and almost never have a safely operational piece of equipment when you actually need it.

This is I guess what I was trying to get at. I see it a lot at my job (I am a maintenance mechanic at a factory). People that share machines across different shifts have absolutely no respect for the equipment. There is no accountability for the way they treat equipment, and even the people that start out caring for a while eventually give up because others don't care, and they figure why should they be the only one's that do.

 

[KennyG]

I agree with the concern about multiple users, some potentially unqualified. For a while I was maintaining our church lawn mowers and I finally gave up when I realized it took less time just to haul my tractor over and mow it myself.

 

[Grandad4]

Sadly, I have to agree that shared, borrowed or rented equipment always seems to get used roughly. Add to that the tendency for disputes to turn neighborhood homeowner groups into a war zone, and what sounds like a great idea in theory is probably never going to work in the real world. If someone, somewhere has actually done this and it has worked out, it must be a really special place.

 

[hosspuller]

Just look at the condition of rental machines ...I never loan my equipment out unless it goes with the operator (me) Hand tools I can afford their loss or damage. buy everyone a snow shovel ! My snow shovel was passed around by everybody in the cul-de-sac in Atlanta GA.

 

[tractchores]

We have a small street shared by a number of houses (maybe .5 mi). We get way more snow up here obviously. Our approach is that someone takes turns being in charge of the roadway. We generally contract out the removal and the person in charge maintains the contract, pays the bill etc. It's probably 2500 a season for our road and individual owners can contract directly for their own driveway at a discount if they wish. I'm currently in charge of the road and once in a while plow it with my own tractor to save some money and do some other common areas myself with the tractor vs paying someone.

The challenge of doing it with a tractor are somewhat significant:

Liability - person operating gets hurt, hurts someone else, etc you may have a LOT of liability in that situation, especially if the HOA presumed to train them.

Cost & repairs - What happens if someone breaks the machine? Breaks something with the machine, or it breaks down during a blizzard?

Renting to home owners - While a good idea in theory there is liability, you're HOA is now engaging as a rental business (zoning? bylaws, other issues?) and insurance costs plus repairs will be substantial. You would have to charge market rental rates to cover those costs, rental businesses are not making a huge margin.

Plowing - When a person or person(s) are responsible and you get snow in the middle of the night it can get quickly difficult to make sure things are plowed in a timely manner. When multiple people are involved and it's not their job you may have reliability issues. Given that neighborhoods already potentially have conflicts this could be far worse.

In our case a plow is way cheaper (but we're WAY smaller) and it's good to have the liability, repairs and responsibility rest with someone outside of our neighborhood. When someone accused our plow guy of plowing through a garage door last year it was good that he was a third party (turned out he didn't do it - though it took the responsible party confessing to get the home owner to believe it).

 

[dave1949]

Back to the original question, tractor or skid steer?

How much snow do you get there? What's a "big" snowfall for you. How much sleet and ice?

Sand or sand + some sort of salt is commonly used here for sleet and ice, or when snow-packed roads get slicked up by traffic and sunshine.

If you need to use sand and/or salt, a storage place and method of loading it into a spreader is needed. Dry storage works a lot better than in the open.

 

[jenkinsph]

Hire it out with a contract and get a copy of the insurance policy. Save everyone the grief of the tractor wars.

 

[Tomtint]

I can see this scenario going bad in a number of different ways. The first of which would be the worst case. A operator is involved in a accident during or after a snow event and ..heavin forbid, someone dies. At that point everyone in the subdivision is going to get sued. A lawyer is going to see 2 miles of homeowners and leach onto every homeowner policy he can get. IMO, hire a contractor and be listed as additional insured.

 

[Lt CHEG]

Hire it out to someone reputable with sufficient insurance and enough equipment to handle the job no matter the situation. Road maintenance for a situation like this isn't for amateurs and when access to homes for things like police, fire and EMS service are at stake you need to be sure the job gets done. A professional will have backup equipment and the ability to handle large events. And in the long run accounting for liability, breakdowns, etc. hiring it out will be cheaper.

 

[stlbill]

Everyone,

Well, it sounds like this is not such a good idea after all. All great points. Thank you!

So my search for a plow and spreader contractor continues...

Dave1949: In St. Louis a big snowfall is 6" or more at once. Before anyone says it: I was born and raised near Lake Erie so I remember what real snow was like. The problem we have in St. Louis that makes Pennsylvania look easy is freezing rain. For this reason we must have someone with a spreader. The contractor last year told me he spread only 600 pounds of sound on a little more than 2 miles of roads. One bid I received this year verbally (working on getting it in writing) promises to deliver 4,000 pounds per 2 miles, but he costs a whole lot more than last year. That's why I am considering buying a machine all our own, but now I see that was foolhardy. Salt works well for us because temperatures infrequently plunge below 20 F. If they do it is only at the coldest time of the day. We do pay for our own asphalt maintenance in the Summer season so there is merit in using Magnesium or Calcium "Ice melt", but there is a lot of disagreement over whether it is healthier for our asphalt or concrete driveways that meet our asphalt. The cost of Calcium and Magnesium here is very high. I have not yet found anyone who will mix sand with salt of any flavor.

Question: All contractors who have ever cleared snow in the neighborhood use a pickup truck. Is it really possible to spread 4,000 pounds of salt from a pickup truck? How much can be carried in a V-Box in-bed spreader on a 1 ton pickup truck? It seems he would have to return to base for another load of salt soon afterward and before doing another nearby subdivision making his "route" much more challenging.

 

[jenkinsph]

I use Ford F 550 service trucks and these have a payload rating of about 11,000 lbs. Should be able to carry 4 tons of salt in one trip with these trucks. If I was in your shoes find a reputable contractor and let him deal with it, he may have heavy trucks for this specific purpose putting out salt.

 

[Buppies]

Salt is not good for asphalt or concrete especially in large doses. Number eight stone would give you traction while not being harmful to the road or driveway surfaces

 

[Tomtint]

Salt is not good for asphalt or concrete especially in large doses. Number eight stone would give you traction while not being harmful to the road or driveway surfaces

I think you need to determine and balance, not good for asphalt and I need ice melted for safety reasons. I plow and salt all winter. Commercial accounts don't care about asphalt. They do however care if someone slips on ice.

 

[Buppies]

I think you need to determine and balance, not good for asphalt and I need ice melted for safety reasons. I plow and salt all winter. Commercial accounts don't care about asphalt. They do however care if someone slips on ice.

Good point but they have more money to spend than individuals or home owners associations

 

[grsthegreat]

Our association faced this same question years ago...ended up[ in a fight. Who would store it and whats to prevent someone from using it and breaking it on their own property and everyone having to cough up $$ to repair, etc.

Now all we ever do is solicit bids for outside contractors to do the work. Nothing to prevent a homeowner from bidding to do the work as long as they get commercial ins coverage.

Iv'e bid to do the work myself but found it didnt pay enough to cover my time. I made 3x the $$ doing the electrical work i was missing while i plowed snow. The guy doing ours the last few years has done good job, at a set pre season price.

no one has complained.

Honestly, our association couldnt agree as to the color of a tree most of the time.