Tetrachloroethylene and welding

[OutbackL130]

Thanks to this story, I'm sure everybody has heard not to use chlorinated brake cleaner on metal that will be welded since the ingredient, tetrachloroethylene, will react and create toxic phosgene gas.
http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm


Well, I use on a daily basis prior to welding what I thought to be harmless white lithium grease for lubricating tubing as it slides through my tubing bender. White lithium grease is a typical lube for this application and is commonly recommended by tube bender manufacturers.
I looked up the msds on Liquid Wrench White Lithium Grease and was shocked to see the main ingredient in it is... tetrachloroethylene. :shocked:

http://www.trcc.commnet.edu/Div_Adm...Wrench White Lithium Grease 200806 Sec 16.pdf

Can someone review the link above and make sure I am understanding this correctly? In this link for the exact same lithium grease, tetrachloethylene is nowhere listed.
http://www.rscbrands.com/products/msds/L616.PDF


The warnings about brake cleaner have been widely posted but this is the same exact chemical hidden in white lithium grease and I've been using it everyday for years!

 

[George2615]

It looks to me on the MSDS that the company has changed the chemical make up of the product.
The first one (that listed tetra-c as an ingredient) was issued 6/3/2008. The latter without was issued 1/24/2013.
You can call the company to verify but I think that is the case.

 

[newbury]

THANKS for the warning.
Good info.

 

[hosspuller]

As I remember the issue, TET in the air is reduced to the toxic gas in the arc. The major cause of TET in the air was using it as a degreaser, allowing it to evaporate. If you can ventilate the TET away before striking the arc, you'll be okay.

All things toxic have to meet the three factors, Dose, toxicity, and exposure. How much grease do you use at a time?

 

[OutbackL130]

I contacted liquid wrench and poison control about this and found out the toxic chemical was in liquid wrench white lithium grease until 2011. I honestly dont know why it didnt kill me. I never felt any sickness from welding around it like that guy did in the article and I have used a lot of the stuff over time.

 

[Kyle_in_Tex]

I use acetone to clean metal before welding.

 

[Gary Fowler]

I think the TET is just the carrier for the spray white grease. Most of it will have evaporated in a few minutes which is likely why you haven't felt any effects from welding on the grease itself which would be all that is left after a few minutes. What the effects of high temp electric arc burning of the grease itself might also need to be considered. However, all welding should be done on a clean, grease, dirt, rust, solvents and water free surface. If you follow that, then you would be pretty safe.

 

[Arc weld]

You should try and get some graphite. I've heard the Edmonton Exchanger shop is pretty dirty shop because they use a lot of graphite when forming vessel heads and other thick components and it gets tracked throughout the shop. You wouldn't think a 3000 ton head press would need any help but when you're forming material up to 8" thick, it takes a little force. Their new rolls might not need much help though, 7" cold and 11" hot (1650 F) rolling capacity.

 

[mikehaugen]

Health effects aside, I'm not sure why you would be welding greasy steel anyway. Is it just on parts of the steel that get hot, or is it right at the point of weld?

 

[OutbackL130]

Health effects aside, I'm not sure why you would be welding greasy steel anyway. Is it just on parts of the steel that get hot, or is it right at the point of weld?

Generally if I'm just going to be mig welding on new carbon steel I will wipe any excess greasy residue off with a dry shop towel prior to welding. Sometimes the grease gets inside the tubing where you can not access to clean it out. If for some reason I'm going to be welding on anything that was painted or rusty like an old tractor, I will of course grind the areas off where I'm going to be welding.

Most welders I know they prep the same way as I do for carbon steel. Aluminum is far more critical to clean than carbon steel and if I'm going to be welding aluminum I would follow these procedures.
Miller - What You Need to Know About Cleaning and Preparing Aluminum Filler and Base Metals Before Welding

I went to welding school for 2 years and passed every class from stick to TIG and not once did we break out a can of acetone before welding carbon steel.

Acetone is a hazardous solvent and the warning labels on the can and msds are enough for me not to go anywhere near it to rub down 100's of feet of tubing every day.
I try to limit any contact with solvents and chemicals in my manufacturing process. As far as the tube bending is concerned, I would spray 2 quick squirts of lithium grease onto my bender's follower block for each piece of tubing fed through. I bend anywhere from 10 to 20 pieces a day. Bending is usually the second step of my process after cutting and then I go onto notching, marking holes, drilling, grinding and jig fitting. So by the time I ever start welding on the metal it has been at least 30 minutes.

The issue I have is lithium grease is just perceived as a grease. I never imagined they would add in hardcore toxic chemicals. LIQUID WRENCH White Lithium Grease is the only brand I found to contain this toxic chemical. The other brands did not have it. Im going to avoid Liquid Wrench at all costs from now on. They changed the ingredients in 2011, but certain VOC's are still listed.

Back when I started working with it I didnt even know what a MSDS sheet was so I would read the back of the can and if it did not say I would die from it or get brain damage, how would I have known any different?

I know for a fact in the world of 4x4's and jeeps where tube bending is common, people building bumpers and roll cages are told to use the same lithium grease by tube bender manufacturers and those welders follow the same welding prep process as I did. It's amazing how easily you can get yourself into trouble.

Everybody knows about the dangers of welding around brake cleaner, but I bet nobody knew the same toxic chemical was in Liquid Wrench White Lithium Grease.

 

[Gary Fowler]

You may want to try some Mystic brand of grease. I bought some recently to try it and it was clear, looked like liquid silicone in color so it would be less of a mess to clean off than white lithium. It claimed to be more water resistant than Lithium based greases and I planned to use it on my backhoe I don't have MSDS on it but it sure wouldn't have any solvents. Not as convenient as a spray can, but put it in a can with a small brush and just swipe it on when needed.

 

[stuckmotor]

You should try and get some graphite. I've heard the Edmonton Exchanger shop is pretty dirty shop because they use a lot of graphite when forming vessel heads and other thick components and it gets tracked throughout the shop. You wouldn't think a 3000 ton head press would need any help but when you're forming material up to 8" thick, it takes a little force. Their new rolls might not need much help though, 7" cold and 11" hot (1650 F) rolling capacity.

A search with the words "graphite" and "lung" can produce some scary results of it's own.

 

[Arc weld]

Just about everything to do with welding and metal fabricating is scary depending on who you talk to.

 

[stuckmotor]

Just about everything to do with welding and metal fabricating is scary depending on who you talk to.

So true, but I don't plan to stop.

 

[ericher69]

A half mask respirator with proper cartridges will help a great deal.

I know they are not comfortable to wear.

I have a buddy on a paving crew and he wears one whilst paving or around the paver.

 

[OutbackL130]

Same here I wouldn't want to quit welding for anything. Now I wear a speedglas helmet with adflo for respiratory protection. The filters in it only protect against metal fumes and particles, not organic vapors. The blower does bring in fresh air far away from the smoke plume which is a huge plus.