Tier 4 Emissions Compliance

[bigcut]

Hope I'm not breaking any rules, but was curious as to the readership opinion on the various brand methods for achieving Tier 4.

Is one method or brand more effective or problem free as opposed to others ? There seems to be quite a few posts over the subject of "re-gen" and the tractor dying or going limp due to some emissions issue.

Branson claims to be electronic free. So, I'm curious as to how they achieve compliance and what the readership thinks about Branson's approach to being compliant. I'd welcome any thoughts.
John

 

[ericm979]

Branson uses a DPF and mechanical fuel injection. I posted a link to a paper a while back that detailed a low temp constant regen system that could be retrofitted to existing mechanical fuel injection engines. I'm pretty sure that is what Branson uses. There are no discrete regens, it's always cleaning itself.

The drawback is that if you idle it around all the time you will eventually clog the DPF. There's a differential pressure sensor that will warn you before it gets bad. You then need to work it hard for a while to get the DPF hot. Running up and down the road is one way. But really the best thing is to run it in your regular work. The tach has a green line from 2000 to 2500 rpm (pto speed is 2400 or so). Branson says to run it in the green zone. I do most of the time. I've had no issues. Few people do.

Some people are into running at as low an rpm as they can. Or their tasks just don't require much rpm, like loader work (though I like to bump the rpms up so the loader moves crisply). If that's how you're going to run it and you are unable or unwilling to change, you might be better with a tractor that has discrete high temp regens. It'll have to do the more often because of the way the tractor's being operated. That'll take life out of of the DPF but it's still probably thousands of hours.

For tractors with regen, there's varying amounts of hassle. For many there's barely a change in operation especially if you're working the tractor at the time (i.e. mowing). The larger the engine the more likely this is, though it varies from model to model. Small tractors with turbos in cold climates have more problems. If you're running the tractor and about to park it and it wants to do a regen, you can either let it sit there running for 20 minutes or whatever, or hit the "do it later" button. But you can't do that all the time, that's how people get into trouble. It's gotta do it's thing.

One of the draws of the Branson for me was the lack of regens. I was worried about having to leave a tractor running to do its regen. Given how I operate it that fear was probably overblown. I like that the exhaust is not stinky and smoky. I dislike diesel smoke. My old Kubota would pollute the barn when I was changing implements. The Branson doesn't.

Mahindra uses a DOC and EGR instead of DPF. It has no regen but it does have EFI.

 

[bigcut]

Branson uses a DPF and mechanical fuel injection. I posted a link to a paper a while back that detailed a low temp constant regen system that could be retrofitted to existing mechanical fuel injection engines. I'm pretty sure that is what Branson uses. There are no discrete regens, it's always cleaning itself.

The drawback is that if you idle it around all the time you will eventually clog the DPF. There's a differential pressure sensor that will warn you before it gets bad. You then need to work it hard for a while to get the DPF hot. Running up and down the road is one way. But really the best thing is to run it in your regular work. The tach has a green line from 2000 to 2500 rpm (pto speed is 2400 or so). Branson says to run it in the green zone. I do most of the time. I've had no issues. Few people do.

Some people are into running at as low an rpm as they can. Or their tasks just don't require much rpm, like loader work (though I like to bump the rpms up so the loader moves crisply). If that's how you're going to run it and you are unable or unwilling to change, you might be better with a tractor that has discrete high temp regens. It'll have to do the more often because of the way the tractor's being operated. That'll take life out of of the DPF but it's still probably thousands of hours.

For tractors with regen, there's varying amounts of hassle. For many there's barely a change in operation especially if you're working the tractor at the time (i.e. mowing). The larger the engine the more likely this is, though it varies from model to model. Small tractors with turbos in cold climates have more problems. If you're running the tractor and about to park it and it wants to do a regen, you can either let it sit there running for 20 minutes or whatever, or hit the "do it later" button. But you can't do that all the time, that's how people get into trouble. It's gotta do it's thing.

One of the draws of the Branson for me was the lack of regens. I was worried about having to leave a tractor running to do its regen. Given how I operate it that fear was probably overblown. I like that the exhaust is not stinky and smoky. I dislike diesel smoke. My old Kubota would pollute the barn when I was changing implements. The Branson doesn't.

Mahindra uses a DOC and EGR instead of DPF. It has no regen but it does have EFI.

Eric, Thanks for a great explanation !! I'm puzzled as to why people select other brands that use CPUs and require re-gen. Not sure what the added complexity gets them.

I guess things are good as long as the DPF lasts for thousands of hours...No worries the.

 

[Fuddy1952]

I have re-gen on my new John Deere. All that happens is the display says operate over 1500 rpm. It takes about 15 minutes or so to cycle which to me is no problem because I simply use it during the cycle.
Once started it won't let you idle it down unless you manually cancel it, but operating I'm not below that rpm anyway.

 

[3Lfarms]

Eric, Thanks for a great explanation !! I'm puzzled as to why people select other brands that use CPUs and require re-gen. Not sure what the added complexity gets them.

I guess things are good as long as the DPF lasts for thousands of hours...No worries the.

There must be a trade off somewhere, otherwise everyone would do it.
It seems to me like the constant regen sounds like a selling point for Mahindra and Branson, but I wonder if they work in sub zero temps. It seems like a tall order to get the exhaust hot enough to burn off carbon at -30F. A diesel has to have a heavy load to get the exhaust really hot. The only way to do that on a tractor is to put it to work with some sort of ground engaging implement. Most people only use compacts for loader work or mowing. Generally not enough to really make the engine work.
I don’t know of any street legal tier IV diesels that don’t use a regen.
I’d be interested to see what the ambient temps were for people that have their machines regen sooner than others when run at the same RPM and loads.

 

[bigcut]

There must be a trade off somewhere, otherwise everyone would do it.
It seems to me like the constant regen sounds like a selling point for Mahindra and Branson, but I wonder if they work in sub zero temps. It seems like a tall order to get the exhaust hot enough to burn off carbon at -30F.
I don’t know of any street legal tier IV diesels that don’t use a regen.
I’d be interested to see what the ambient temps were for people that have their machines regen sooner than others when run at the same RPM and loads.

3L, you raise a good point. Maybe someone can comment who has a Branson in say, WI, MN,. I do know of one individual who I believe lives in Bismark, ND. I'll see if I can ask him. I know thus far he is very happy with his Branson.

 

[ericm979]

I'm just theorizing here but the tradeoff for Branson's system might be that it requires more of the expensive catalyst in the DPF. EFI, once developed, is probably no more expensive than mechanical FI. These days tight tolerance mechanical parts like in a mechanical fuel injection pump cost more to make than electronics and software. It's possible that Branson's solution costs a little more to produce but cost less in development time or license fees up front. I don't actually know that it requires more catalyst, this is just a theory.

Street legal diesels are all over 75 hp where the requirements are more stringent.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

I sell about every variation of emissions system out there, beyond some slick branding no company really has anything truly unique. These systems are WAY beyond the R&D budget of most companies, so more often than not its another companies technologies. I would not say that any one system is more or less trouble free than any other, and probably 75% of the problems you see online where induced by the operator in some fashion. We'd have a lot less trouble if dealers did a better job of customer education.

 

[prof fate]

Trade off is fuel consumption, control.

When my kioti is regenning it's using more fuel, as most are, as they injecting fuel into the exhaust filter (the DPF item).

If you only do that 10 minutes every 30 some hours (as on my kioti) vs all the time on a branson how do you think that affects it?

And with all mechanical there is no control/check on the system where a computer controlled one only runs when needed (31 hours once, 38 hours another time).

Flip side is more sensors, computer - but that can be updated if need be, mechanical system can't easily/readily be adjusted.

There must be a trade off somewhere, otherwise everyone would do it.
It seems to me like the constant regen sounds like a selling point for Mahindra and Branson, but I wonder if they work in sub zero temps. It seems like a tall order to get the exhaust hot enough to burn off carbon at -30F. A diesel has to have a heavy load to get the exhaust really hot. The only way to do that on a tractor is to put it to work with some sort of ground engaging implement. Most people only use compacts for loader work or mowing. Generally not enough to really make the engine work.
I don稚 know of any street legal tier IV diesels that don稚 use a regen.
I壇 be interested to see what the ambient temps were for people that have their machines regen sooner than others when run at the same RPM and loads.

 

[jeff9366]

Some posts here claim DPFs will last 5,000 engine hours. More posts claim DPF's will last 10,000 engine hours.
No one really knows.....

The average residential tractor is used eighty engine hours per year.
5,000/80 = 62.5 years 10,000/80 = 125 years

How many engine hours per year do you forecast using your tractor?


Tractors survived Tier I, Tier II anf Tier III emission controls. Tractors will survive Tier IV emission controls.
Tier V standards have been promulgated and tractor producers are working to meet Tier V standards.

I expect electrically powered compact tractors within a few years, which will eliminate the need for pollution controls on battery powered tractors.