Towing a square baler

[art]

Funny you should bring that up... I HAD a 1066, sold it after I bought the 4440. I found the case to be just the opposite. The 4440 would work circles around the 1066. The IH wouldn't handle the 470 on our hills..Brought it to a standstill a couple times.....The 4440 will walk right on up those same hills with the 496. Those old IH's were just like re-arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic....No matter where you put 'em, the ship still sank.

Can't say that I ever saw that. I'd wonder that the tire sizing was different then what we worked with. Even seen the red pulling another bottom up hills then the deere would do. I know that at the time deere had a good shifting unit but never did see them pull like a red tractor. I know that western tractors normally had 18-4-38's on them instead of the 20'8-38's. The smaller tires could never hold the torque on the hills which wold give the stand up conditions.

Most farmers found they didn't need to shift the red ones as much do to the additional torque rise.

Did see people that could take the TA out in 2500 hours as well as saw them go 8500 hours.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Can't say that I ever saw that. I'd wonder that the tire sizing was different then what we worked with. Even seen the red pulling another bottom up hills then the deere would do. I know that at the time deere had a good shifting unit but never did see them pull like a red tractor. I know that western tractors normally had 18-4-38's on them instead of the 20'8-38's. The smaller tires could never hold the torque on the hills which wold give the stand up conditions.

Most farmers found they didn't need to shift the red ones as much do to the additional torque rise.

Did see people that could take the TA out in 2500 hours as well as saw them go 8500 hours.

Both had 20.8X38's. The ONLY way a 1066/1086 would pull an additional bottom was to turn them up WAY past the stock hp....And that could just as easily be done with the Deere. But with EITHER, you toss reliability and longevity by doing so....

4430's didn't pull quite as well as the Binders. 4440's had 'em covered, not to mention the vast difference in creature comforts, shifting,much better hydraulics, ect....even with the 4430's....

 

[art]

Both had 20.8X38's. The ONLY way a 1066/1086 would pull an additional bottom was to turn them up WAY past the stock hp....And that could just as easily be done with the Deere. But with EITHER, you toss reliability and longevity by doing so....

4430's didn't pull quite as well as the Binders. 4440's had 'em covered, not to mention the vast difference in creature comforts, shifting,much better hydraulics, ect....even with the 4430's....

WE took a mess of the 4430's in trade do to the rear end issues, the main dealer in the area wanted about 7,000 for the update and we found a dealer a ways away that was doing it through deere for us for about 1,100 at the time till deere closed the program.
We don't have to many tractors in our area that do run at the rated horsepower not that you needed to change them. Any 10 series IH always ran at 145 to 150 with break in. Same as the 4440's in our area. I did the demo on the plows my self as the tractors were both new as well as the plow. IH always had a better draft control then deere did so we always relied on that and quite often we went in one tractor size smaller when working on the three point hitch. We did switch tractors to the plow, the customer was laughing as his brother had a 4440 and had plowed the hill for him before with his and a five bottom but it spent more time on the back two then it did on all four.. The 1086 did it but didn't run away with it at the same speed as the 4440 with the five. Taught me a good thing, just because you can out perform another make tractor doesn't mean they will buy it.. Got to love the fellows with green shorts!
Pulling a disc was balance on the hills and different then the plows, same as pulling a forage harvester where you only really worked from the PTO.

The IH engine was overly built at the time to the rest of the industry even by much of todays standards although the designer had other motives! I still agaree on the cabs being better as well as the shifting even though the old straight cut gears did give improved fuel economy it wasn't enough to over come the creature comforts. Many of the dairy boys enjoyed the red tractors ground speed for towing forage boxes back to the farm but they normally used the TA as a brake instead of it's intended purpose so the repair bills did go up!!! It's kind of like trying to explain to them the merits of a hydro and PTO work, but it doesn't pull big loads well, we had to show them!

 

[Farmwithjunk]

WE took a mess of the 4430's in trade do to the rear end issues, the main dealer in the area wanted about 7,000 for the update and we found a dealer a ways away that was doing it through deere for us for about 1,100 at the time till deere closed the program.
We don't have to many tractors in our area that do run at the rated horsepower not that you needed to change them. Any 10 series IH always ran at 145 to 150 with break in. Same as the 4440's in our area. I did the demo on the plows my self as the tractors were both new as well as the plow. IH always had a better draft control then deere did so we always relied on that and quite often we went in one tractor size smaller when working on the three point hitch. We did switch tractors to the plow, the customer was laughing as his brother had a 4440 and had plowed the hill for him before with his and a five bottom but it spent more time on the back two then it did on all four.. The 1086 did it but didn't run away with it at the same speed as the 4440 with the five. Taught me a good thing, just because you can out perform another make tractor doesn't mean they will buy it.. Got to love the fellows with green shorts!
Pulling a disc was balance on the hills and different then the plows, same as pulling a forage harvester where you only really worked from the PTO.

The IH engine was overly built at the time to the rest of the industry even by much of todays standards although the designer had other motives! I still agaree on the cabs being better as well as the shifting even though the old straight cut gears did give improved fuel economy it wasn't enough to over come the creature comforts. Many of the dairy boys enjoyed the red tractors ground speed for towing forage boxes back to the farm but they normally used the TA as a brake instead of it's intended purpose so the repair bills did go up!!! It's kind of like trying to explain to them the merits of a hydro and PTO work, but it doesn't pull big loads well, we had to show them!

The axle bearing issues with the 4430's were addressed, updated and rectified before the second year of production was rolling off the line. 4430's didn't have problems beyond the initial batch. Most that did have problems were covered under warranty. I know of TWO that were repaired on the owners dime.... 7 and 9 years after they were new..... A neighbor has a '75 4430 with over 12,000 hours, on a dairy farm no less, and hasn't ever had the rear end touched....And the ones that did need bearings and weren't covered under warranty were repaired for less than $2500 at the time. Last time I heard, it wasn't even $7000 in 2011 dollars to rebuild a 4430 rear end. Deere was ALWAYS better about rectifying warranty issues....A point where IH struggled miserably. (Remember the "tent cities" outside IH dealers when the rear ends on 560's started falling apart in mass numbers?) When the IH 1466's started shedding teeth in the final drives faster than new parts could be engineered and distributed, A good friend had his '74 1466 parked at his dealers shop for 16 months waiting on updated parts to show up.

Odd how your observations on 4440 vs 10 series IH and plows is the polar opposite as was the case here in our part of the country....4440's would flat smoke a 1066/1086, and the primary reason was the outdated, sluggish low flowing hydraulics and draft control IH stuck with until the ship sank. There were a ton of devout Binderoids around here that jumped ship when they got a sample of the butt whippin's their tractors took once the SoundGaurd tractors showed up.

In the end, all you have to do is look at sales figures from back in the day....Deere left IH in the dust. The 10 series IH's were "good tractors", sadly they ran up against a "GREAT tractor"......and couldn't ever catch up.

It's a moot point now though, as IH had to peddle their name at a fire sale because of pathetic management and sticking with outdated designs until there was nothing left but to hoist the white flag, and Deere has gone on to bigger and better things.....

 

[art]

The axle bearing issues with the 4430's were addressed, updated and rectified before the second year of production was rolling off the line. 4430's didn't have problems beyond the initial batch. Most that did have problems were covered under warranty. I know of TWO that were repaired on the owners dime.... 7 and 9 years after they were new..... A neighbor has a '75 4430 with over 12,000 hours, on a dairy farm no less, and hasn't ever had the rear end touched....And the ones that did need bearings and weren't covered under warranty were repaired for less than $2500 at the time. Last time I heard, it wasn't even $7000 in 2011 dollars to rebuild a 4430 rear end. Deere was ALWAYS better about rectifying warranty issues....A point where IH struggled miserably. (Remember the "tent cities" outside IH dealers when the rear ends on 560's started falling apart in mass numbers?) When the IH 1466's started shedding teeth in the final drives faster than new parts could be engineered and distributed, A good friend had his '74 1466 parked at his dealers shop for 16 months waiting on updated parts to show up.

.....

We never touched a ring and pinion till the strike at IH that lasted for 6 months and we went out west and bought what we thought were 2500 to 3500 hour tractors and we found they were ten thousand higher. As far as the 560, that was the hot rod and a bit before my mechanic days. There were a lot of things I didn't like about those, but just like many more they are part of history.

Deere wishes it was just light bearings in the axles as they basiclly updated them to 40 series rear ends. Deere was paying for parts, labor at the time was up to the customers and that was what the 1100 was to cover! I was close enough to watch it being done on several. The twenty series rear was not strong enough to hold the power. Deere always was quick to recognize mistakes and normally was getting the mods out so they nearly beat the first tractors to the field.

It seems strange that at the deere field days highlighting the 4840 where they had a 1586 and a 7080 allis and the 1586 out pulled in distance and time both other makes, many dealers in the crowd stated it was the engine, both the deere as well as the allis were spinning before the hitch responded to the nine shanks in the ground, the 1586 didn't even loosen the turf and did that being 20 horsepower less. Deere for years never built a good draft control or if a twenty percent load change is good, seven percent was better. Nobody in this area even used them on a deere not that with the different soil bases in this area often in the same field is it easy to maintain depths.

 

[art]

Just looking we are way off base here as far as the speed to tow a baler!

 

[RickB]

The axle bearing issues with the 4430's were addressed, updated and rectified before the second year of production was rolling off the line. 4430's didn't have problems beyond the initial batch. Most that did have problems were covered under warranty. I know of TWO that were repaired on the owners dime.... 7 and 9 years after they were new..... A neighbor has a '75 4430 with over 12,000 hours, on a dairy farm no less, and hasn't ever had the rear end touched....And the ones that did need bearings and weren't covered under warranty were repaired for less than $2500 at the time. Last time I heard, it wasn't even $7000 in 2011 dollars to rebuild a 4430 rear end. Deere was ALWAYS better about rectifying warranty issues....A point where IH struggled miserably. (Remember the "tent cities" outside IH dealers when the rear ends on 560's started falling apart in mass numbers?) When the IH 1466's started shedding teeth in the final drives faster than new parts could be engineered and distributed, A good friend had his '74 1466 parked at his dealers shop for 16 months waiting on updated parts to show up.

Odd how your observations on 4440 vs 10 series IH and plows is the polar opposite as was the case here in our part of the country....4440's would flat smoke a 1066/1086, and the primary reason was the outdated, sluggish low flowing hydraulics and draft control IH stuck with until the ship sank. There were a ton of devout Binderoids around here that jumped ship when they got a sample of the butt whippin's their tractors took once the SoundGaurd tractors showed up.

In the end, all you have to do is look at sales figures from back in the day....Deere left IH in the dust. The 10 series IH's were "good tractors", sadly they ran up against a "GREAT tractor"......and couldn't ever catch up.

It's a moot point now though, as IH had to peddle their name at a fire sale because of pathetic management and sticking with outdated designs until there was nothing left but to hoist the white flag, and Deere has gone on to bigger and better things.....

Over time there were probably as many 1066's with differential failures as 4430's with final drive problems on a per thousand units built basis. A strong running 10 would not hold up over time given a steady diet of high draft loads. They built 1466's for several reasons, and most of them were to the rear of the range transmission.

 

[JasG]

You do have to give Art some credit, he does really believe in the product he works with. I always like the IH engines, it was just the rest of the machine I didn't like as much as the Deeres. I did like them as much or more than anything out there I drove other than Deere. It just seemed to me the 66 and 86's I drove were a step above the 20 series Deeres, but never caught up to the 30 series and beyond. The sound guard body, quad or powershift trans. I don't think anyone had as nice a machine till the late 80's early 90's. Or if they did I never knew anyone with one. Of course that is in my limited world where IH, Deere, and Ford were the big ones. Very few Case, Massy, around and Allis was around but dead.

 

[RickB]

You do have to give Art some credit, he does really believe in the product he works with. I always like the IH engines, it was just the rest of the machine I didn't like as much as the Deeres. I did like them as much or more than anything out there I drove other than Deere. It just seemed to me the 66 and 86's I drove were a step above the 20 series Deeres, but never caught up to the 30 series and beyond. The sound guard body, quad or powershift trans. I don't think anyone had as nice a machine till the late 80's early 90's. Or if they did I never knew anyone with one. Of course that is in my limited world where IH, Deere, and Ford were the big ones. Very few Case, Massy, around and Allis was around but dead.

I used to give Art a much harder time than I do now. He's just a hardcore old IH man and there's really not much wrong with that. I used to work for a guy that was the same way. Bled red for many reasons.

We came quite a ways from towing a square baler down the road.

 

[AKfish]

He's just a hardcore old IH man and there's really not much wrong with that.

We came quite a ways from towing a square baler down the road.

I grew up working with red machines... 560 being one of 'em! 706, 806, 826, 656, 886. All good tractors.

But... I certainly noted the differences when I had a chance to work on a green tractor for a few hours!

Most of those days are 35-40+ years in the past, at this point in time.

Nice to read comments from folks who, while they do not necessarily agree... they are respectful and thoughtful enough to avoid becoming mean spirited and insulting! :thumbsup:

We can always go back to "towing the baler down the road"!!!

AKfish